How Vulnerability Makes You A Better Leader With David Dye

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Zach: [00:00:00] What does it take to be a great leader?

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: tap into people and purpose and have those as your motivators. How am I serving the people? How am I bringing us together to achieve something bigger than ourselves? Now you've got a chance to start being influential with other people. 

Jeremy: That's David Dye. He's the best selling author of Tomorrow Together, essays of Hope, healing and Humanity. Today, we'll talk with him about why vulnerability and perspective are critical components of any effective leader.

Zach: But first, this is the fit mess. We're together, we learn to develop habits that help us live beyond our mental health struggles to create happier, healthier lives.

Jeremy: He's Zach. He lives in the future with his.

Zach: He's Jeremy and he lives in the past with his depression, and we get together once a week in the present to share the obstacles we face and how we overcome them.

Jeremy: And this week that obstacle is figuring out how to be an effective leader, whether it's at home, at the office, or wherever. You need to show up better in your life. Zach, this episode is a perfect dovetail to what we did last week, talking about just getting your [00:01:00] shit together, getting organized, figuring out how to get things done. Which can help you become a more effective leader. And this is something you know a lot about because you've spent a lot of time in leadership in recent years,

Zach: So they say, yeah, I guess so. I've been leading teams for I think over 10 years.

Jeremy: and what have you found to be some of the most valuable pieces of being a great leader?

Zach: Just, you know, like, like we're gonna find out in the interview, like being vulnerable and , letting people know that you are human and that you make mistakes too. It really does open up the door to. This really, really effective and efficient relationship that you can have with people that you have to lead.

And this doesn't even mean like at work, right? Even having that, conversation with a spouse, , with your children, it doesn't matter. Like having that vulnerable conversation and allowing other people to know that you struggle. You have gone through hard times and you have figured shit out.

 People will follow you a little bit more. Knowing that you've been through the struggle.

Jeremy: I think anybody listening [00:02:00] to this would agree with the second part of that, that of course, with your family, with your loved ones, vulnerability is key. You've gotta open up to have , those great connections with people. For some people, and maybe you've seen this in your work experience, the idea of being open, vulnerable, sharing your feelings, sharing your struggle in a corporate, , work environment. Up until very recently, I think would've been not only unusual, but frowned upon to, to bring your personal life. That was, it was always a lesson, right? Don't bring your personal life at home. We don't have room for that here. This is work.

Zach: I disagree with that. I mean, , I have years and years and years , of having one-on-ones , with my team members. With them spending half of the time in our one-on-ones telling me about personal struggles, that they're happening, not looking for advice and I'm not helping them, but I'm just sitting there listening and they, unload, they vent.

And those were some of the best people that I ever had on my team because they had half an hour to go in and be totally unjudged and just unload. All of their [00:03:00] problems, all of their struggles. And they'd walk out and they'd be like, oh, okay, well I guess I can get some work done now and I don't have to worry about that other stuff.

So I, I mean, yeah, I guess typical corporate environments, , it wasn't okay for a long time, and I think it's starting to become okay, but I've always been that guy. I've always listened, but I've also always dumped all my problems on my boss as well.

Jeremy: Was that always? Uh, well, receiv.

Zach: Um, up until one boss, and I think we spoke about it, the boss that I had about a year and a half ago where I just ended up leaving because he was, yeah, we, I, I won't go into what he was, but let's just suffice to say it. I can, I can use some four letter words to describe this gentleman perfectly.

Jeremy: I completely understand. I've had bosses too where, where I've tried like as, as a, I guess what subordinate, I don't know what the right word would be, but someone working for someone else. I would

Zach: Minion,

Jeremy: What is it a minion? A minion? Yes. A barely not, I'm not even gonna say hardworking minion. A showing up minion.

Uh, would, would try and [00:04:00] go to bosses with, Hey, I've got this personal thing that's going on. And it's funny because there are some that are just like wide open to it and they've got space for it and they can hear it. And then there are some that are sociopaths that just look at you dead eyed , like you're speaking another language.

And so . I know as someone who has. To try and relate to leaders, to, to my managers, that having that open door, knowing that that is a safe place to go with that stuff so that it has a place to land so you can be a more effective minion. was, was always incredibly valuable because I would try to get help from the others.

And just when you get that dead stare, you're just like, you don't care. I'm a number. Where's my check? Thank you. See you.

Zach: Yeah, no, I've, and I've been in so many situations where, you know, that struggle that somebody's going through, as their leader. I've been able to afford them some leeway to take care of whatever it is that they're going through. , and I won't speak into any details cuz I might get in [00:05:00] trouble, but, you know,

Jeremy: What are their names? What are their social security numbers? Where can we call them?

Zach: well no, like I've gone against company policy a couple of times.

Like, you know, in another country somebody had to, , go get help because they actually had something happen physically to them. The law was that they were supposed to use all of their vacation time and then go on, , the equivalent of short term disability. , but I just kept them fully on the books paid.

They didn't use any of their vacation time, nothing. I just kept 'em on for like two months and told HR that they were still working.

Jeremy: , so you were a human being about it. That's, that's very generous

Zach: They continued to get paid. They continued to have health insurance to get through all of this. So like, in the first 20 years of my life, were miserable and I've been there and I totally get it.

So wherever I can, I'm gonna afford somebody the opportunity to get through whatever they're struggling through in as comfortable a manner as they possibly can. They shouldn't have to worry about their.

Jeremy: I quickly wanna mention our sponsor Athletic Greens. If you [00:06:00] wanna empty that overflowing cabinet full of vitamins and replace them with one great tasting drink, then order Athletic Greens now. So you can not only give your body what it needs to thrive, but we'll give you a free year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. The link to try it out is in the show notes for this episode@thefitmess.com

All right, so all this openness and feelings and sharing and stuff, apparently it's, uh, part of the office these days, and it in fact helps make you be a better leader for some more perspective on this. We're joined by David Dye. He's the best selling author of Tomorrow Together, essays of Hope, healing and Humanity, and we started the conversation discussing the importance of perspective in any leader.

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: When you think about perspective for me, uh, the first place I think about perspective is with stress. So much of our stress and so much of the, ill health effects of stress are because we're really. , tight about something, but is it really important? In the grand scheme, there are things that are definitely truly important and you go up and look at the night sky and if you can see the [00:07:00] stars and you think about how big a world we live in, how fast this planet is moving, I've got a chapter in there about standing still.

We are all moving at hundreds of thousands miles per hour. We're not aware. The earth is spinning, the earth is moving through space, the sun is moving through. I mean, it's at a tremendous amount of speed going on. We're not aware of any of that. We don't have that perspective. , I remember a time when I was a kid, , I grew up in the west part of Denver.

I was used to seeing downtown Denver from a particular perspective. One day a friend's mom drives me over to the east side of town in the back of a pickup. We're all laying down flat because it's cold, it's windy, it's February. I'll never forget this. And I sit up and it's like my whole world turned upside down because I had a completely different perspective of downtown Denver.

Okay, well that's cool. , the weird part, this is like 11, 12 year old brain. It was when I realized that there were kids that grew up there, and that's the only perspective they'd ever. And so, you know, those, those aspects of what we're seeing and how we're seeing it make [00:08:00] such a difference for us. , and you know, when we're talking about reframing, whether it's our journey on health and wellness, whether it's our approach to leadership, like you said, everybody's got their own experience.

And if we're thinking about not just our perspective, but other people's perspectives, we're just, we're gonna be more effective in every aspect 

Zach: of our life. I like to call myself a leader. Um, I think I'm okay. Most people say I am., I literally had a couple of, , examples of perspective happen last week in, you know, somebody who would constantly assume negative intent on somebody else's actions.

, because they didn't have that perspective , of what the other person was trying to do. The other person's playing for the same team. They're trying to win, they're just doing what is right for the company. But the other person would assume negative intent. I've been helping this person, coaching him through like switching that focus.

But I would love to hear your thoughts on , how do you change that focus or how do you change that perspective or accept it in a way that's positive? 

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: Zach, the first thing I wanna say is I [00:09:00] love when you said, well, I think I'm a leader. I, maybe I'm a leader. You know, I, I'd like to consider myself a leader.

You're a leader. I mean, you're positively influencing people. This podcast, you, you know, the both of you are, are Zach and Jeremy. You're definitely doing good work in the world. , I just ran my first ultramarathon and, uh, I'm still having trouble referring to myself as a runner. I haven't got there yet.

So, you know, uh, that's part of the journey. But to, to your question about how do you help someone, , change their per. There are a couple things that I think, and this is not easy work. Uh, and the first question I have for anyone listening is, are you able to change your own perspective? Are you open to data shaping how you see the world and the truth and the way that you understand things and the stories that we tell about ourselves.

 You, Zach, learning about you. We have a similar thing. I weigh almost 300 pounds. I've lost a tremendous amount of that weight. I had to reframe and reconsider the truth I understood about myself in order to go on that journey. [00:10:00] And so recognizing how difficult that is for us, gives us some empathy for how difficult that's going to be for another human being.

And so building that relationship, I call it reflect to connect where. Connecting with the emotion of what we're hearing from another person. It sounds like you're really frustrated, you're excited, you're, you're sad. Can we make that emotional connection first so that the person , feels seen, feels heard, and then we're able to start to go on a journey together.

Then from there, it's curiosity. I'm not trying to overturn their mental models and, and ways of thinking. I want to start where they are and start asking question. And getting them thinking, is it possible that this person could be approaching it this way? Have you tried doing this? What do you think might happen if you were to go about it this way?

And I've had some really, really awesome, , successes with leaders that I've been coaching and developing and working with over the years who have made some of those transitions and really [00:11:00] fundamentally changed their way of looking at other human being. and I've had those who didn't. Mm-hmm. who didn't want to do that work.

Or it was too painful or it somehow, , called into question something that, a core belief that they didn't wanna deal with. And that's okay. You know, that not everybody's willing to go on that journey, but the first place to help maximize our chance of success, can we connect at that emotional. And then can we get curious?

Where are they coming from? How are they seeing? And then can we start introducing curiosity into their thought processes and the questions they're asking.

Jeremy: this is just striking me because there's so much of this. What I think is causing a lot of division for people right now and not being able to relate to each other, is that lack of perspective or that lack of maybe lack of curiosity or willingness to open up and question, , our own beliefs. So how do we, I guess first, why do we get stuck there? Why do we clinging to these beliefs , and how do we start Tory them? I, I would, I'm, I'm stuck here because I feel like the person who's clinging to it doesn't have a [00:12:00] desire to let it go or to. So let's start first, I guess, with how do they get stuck with that belief that keeps them locked where they.

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: Yeah. If you were to choose a theme of tomorrow together, , really there are so many different aspects of answering this question, Jeremy. Uh, coming from , different ways of looking at it, , there's a comfort level that comes with the security of knowing what we know. It's human nature, that confirmation bias, it's a real thing.

It is comfortable for us to know what we know, and it's comfortable for us to, , accumulate the facts that support what we already know and interpret what we see in light of all what we already know. It's uncomfortable to do that differently, but what can make it more comfortable is relat. And so one of the, the principles for me, like, and I think anybody who we care about the future of things, part of what we have to do is recognize that other people, for the most part I grant you there are that minuscule percentage of exceptions, but other people did not wake up trying to think [00:13:00] about how to ruin your life.

They woke up trying to figure out how to survive and make the best of their life. I like to say you're not the center of anyone else's.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm.

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: I mean, maybe you have a dog. If you have a dog, you might be the center of their, but you know, otherwise you're not the center of anybody else's universe. They're trying to do the best they can.

So starting with that, that level of empathy and recognizing, okay, they're on the journey, they're on, and then. Where does the polarization, where does the isolation, where's all that come in? , part of it's fear. , you know, we're living in a time of change. I mean, you can look at humanity historically and not any one individual, but the massive humanity.

And whenever we go through times of change and uncertainty and fear, and I don't know what's happening and is my status changing and do I feel a sense of loss? Now I'm holding on. I mean, listen, we're three white guys talking on a, on a podcast right now. , the world is changing and for the better, in my opinion.

And that change is frightening to many people. And so, okay, I can start with [00:14:00] there's some real legitimate fear there. You know, let's go back to the, the pandemic. . People who are wearing masks, people who aren't wearing masks, and they get fired up at. But why they're both coming from a place of fear of and uncertainty of all that's going on.

And if I can tap into that and recognize that emotion and start there, I've got a chance to have a conversation. And that relationship, that conversation is critical. That's, you know, that's the start of everything. And I think the other aspect is recognizing that there's truth behind just about everybody's.

There's some kind of truth. It might be an emotional truth, it might be a way of looking at the world, but there's something, so I I share a story in, uh, tomorrow together about, this island Bon air. It's this desert island in the South Caribbean, 60 miles north of Venezuela. Uh, Ingo scuba diving there and different things, but there are wild donkeys roaming around this island.

Well, if you know anything about that, There's not supposed to be donkeys roaming around the island. They're a native, they're an invasive species. They were brought there 400 years ago by the Spaniards, to haul [00:15:00] salt and and such. And then when the machinery came along, you didn't need the donkeys. They just turned them loose.

Like, what else are we gonna do with these donkeys? Well, the donkeys don't belong there. It's a hostile environment. They're eating all the plants, they're getting sick, they're getting hit by cars, different things. So somebody started a donkey. To care for the donkeys, and you're thinking, well, that's an obviously a good thing.

At least I thought so. I visited it. It's like Shrek on donkey, you know, it's, it's hysterical, but you, you spend a little time investigating and I found out that there's a whole petition opposed to the donkey sanctuary. I'm like, what is going on here? How can this be? Well, you dig a little deeper and you find out that these folks.

They don't wanna see the donkeys removed from the island. They feel like it's part of their heritage now it's 400 years. That's a long time. It's part of what is now, so it's heritage. Also, they also care about the donkeys, and they don't like the fact that some of the donkeys are being sterilized when they're brought in to control the [00:16:00] population.

, and that some are euthanized because they're ill or sick and so on. And so, you know, there's a position of caring on both sides of that discussion. And we can have a discussion if we can see that in one another. 

Zach: in building that relationship, , All I can picture is just donkeys, roaming all over the place.

I'm sorry, . Um, 

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: just grab a bag of carrots. Everything 

Zach: will be alright.

Jeremy: right.

Zach: So in, in building these relationships with people, from a leader perspective, I know I am a big believer in being vulnerable as a leader. it, it helps relate to, , people that you are leading. It shows them , that you're human.

 I want to ask you about that. Like in, in this relationship building, you know, how important is vulnerability, whether it is, , as a leader or, , as a, , part of a family or as a friend or anything that you are in this world. can you talk a little bit about vulnerability and why that's so important to the 

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: relationship?

Yeah, Zach, it's absolutely [00:17:00] critical and it, it, uh, it goes to the heart of why I wrote. One of the reasons I wrote this book, uh, tomorrow Together really came because. You know, I, I've got, I've got some stuff in my past and everybody has their junk, but I typically don't find a way to share that in those leadership conversations.

But it's a critical part of who I am and it's important for people to understand that. And some of it, it's not stuff I'm always proud of and it's not, you know, uh, some of it's painful to share, but that, that vulnerability and connectedness is vital. And why when you look at all the research around, Trust boils down to four things.

Are you credible? Do I think you know what you're doing? Do I have some evidence that you know what you're doing? Reliable? Can I count on you to do what you say you're gonna do? And then there's connected. , are we connected? Do I see you as a human being? Do I understand you as a human being? And that's where the vulnerability comes in.

 , am I opening a little [00:18:00] bit? And, and it's different for different people and we all have different comfort levels. I'm not saying you need to, to go to work your next coaching engagement or anything that you're doing to just, you know, throw up all your emotions all over people. . But it's, can I be a real human?

And acknowledge that yes, I wrestle with, I'm gonna call it lower case D depression. , and it comes and goes, and I'll be fine for weeks and weeks and weeks, and then all of a sudden it's there. I gotta deal with it as do you know, a huge number of people, but we don't talk about it. And so as soon as we can get real with that stuff, it allows people to connect with us.

Why? Because everybody else has their. Everybody has their junk. And to look at a leader or a coach or a role, anybody who holds themselves up as if they don't have those things. And it's just, it's come easy and it's perfection. This is what it is that puts you on a pedestal. And now I know myself like, that's not me.

Well, good for you. You're special. [00:19:00] And now we're disconnected. Mm. But if I can be vulnerable and, and make that connection, and you know, I think a friend of mine, Jessica Pet, she says she likes to pair vulnerability and authenticity. They really have to go together. You don't wanna be falsely vulnerable or authentic without , the true letting us see our humanity.

If we can pair both of those things, it, it definitely paves the way for.

Jeremy: , you shared a little vulnerability with us there with your own, , battle with, as you said, lower case D depression. Uh, and, and we get asked about this a lot too, so I'll ask you because I feel like it's, uh, something that you can help us with is as men, right? Again, here we are, three white guys talking about our feelings.

It doesn't happen a lot out outside of a, a podcast. Why is that? Why is it tough for men to open up and and share what's going on inside?

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: Oh goodness. I mean, where do we begin? There's a, a long list of reasons that go back. I mean, Society and the values that we live in, like all of it came from somewhere, right? , and sometimes for good reasons. [00:20:00] Another friend of mine, she says, uh, none of us have the habits we have because we wanna suck,

Jeremy: that's a good point.

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: right?

We have the habits we have because they helped us to survive. For me, holding on and keeping some of my feelings out of the convers. Made it a lot easier to work through some difficult parent situations when I was a kid. All right, so if we're just gonna be real, like go to therapy or whatever, like that's real.

And so I learned some ways of being that were like, Ooh, don't do that. That has some really tough consequences there. that served me, but it built some habits that don't serve me as an adult if I want intimacy in my adult male or female. Relationship, doesn't matter what kind of relationship, but it's not gonna serve me if I'm not able to go there.

Recognizing that individually we all have whatever we have because of our upbringing, our family, all of that. But then also we live in a society that reinforces some of those norms. And, [00:21:00] uh, you know, in the, the locker rooms that we lived in or, or whatever that might, or the friends we had or whatever it might be.

I mean, I, I remember in, uh, seventh grade, my best friend from middle school, we are still good friends just on this weekend. I mean, he lives across the country. And somebody asked me like, how did you meet? I'll tell you, the friends I had in seventh grade poured milk in my lunch. I said, I'll take a lot of crap, but you do not mess with my food.

and I, I picked up that lunch tray and I looked around the lunchroom and cafeteria and I said, huh, well that kid's talking to the science teacher. I don't see too many kids doing that. That's interesting. I went over and said, Hey, can I sit here decades later? Still, still good.

Jeremy: That's, that's shocking. Middle school generally is just easy breezy for everyone, right? Am I, I, I've

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: Yeah, so it's just so easy, uh, but you know, we, we just ha we assume those things. Yeah. It's just easy, breezy, whatever, and, but we all have that store. Somebody poured milk at all of our lunch, you know, or whatever it [00:22:00] was for us. Oh 

Zach: yeah, I've, I, I may have one or several stories like that from school. Um, I definitely, I, me, I, I, I don't really have anyone from school that I have a life, a lifelong, , relationship with, 

I think that has a lot to do with like that vulnerability that I've always been very sensitive. , Jeremy and I met later in life and we were able to develop a really good relationship, , based on vulnerability. , but I'm, I, I'd love to, , dive in a little bit deeper to that, , and maybe ask about a couple of examples that you might have, like as a leader, you know, being vulnerable and how it helps.

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: . You know, the first thing that comes to mind, Zach, is when I was an executive, I had an individual, I had a, a team leader, an area director, like a director level position, who I had promoted into that role and realized through a series of feedback I was receiving from the team, difficult things I saw happening.

He was [00:23:00] not in the right role and he was not being responsive to the feedback he was getting. He. Um, changing his behavior, , to warrant staying in that role. And he was causing a lot of damage to the organization and to the, some of the people on the team, but he was also very well loved by some of those team members.

I decided to make a change and it was my responsibility. No one else was gonna make it. So I made the change, took him out of the role, and moved another person. And the entire team, there are about 10 people direct reports of this guy, basically at about 4 30, 5 o'clock at the end of the day, had caught wind of what was going on and all came to my office together and basically asked me in the firmest of ways if I'd come down to the conference room and talk with them.

And by talk with them, they meant yell at me for , the better part of an hour. And they were, they were in such pain [00:24:00] because they were losing this guy that they really respected. They liked, he was, and he was awesome. I liked him. He was fantastic to hang out with, but his leadership was limiting the team and damaging some of the folks on the team.

And as they challenged. Challenged me, that vulnerability part. Where I'm going with this is you're talking about a specific example. I had no question I made the right decision, but in that moment, if I had focused on trying to justify the decision, well, let me explain to you why I'm right and you're wrong.

Forget it. There's no chance that would've persuaded anybody. Mm. What they needed was to feel heard, to feel seen, uh, to have their pain recognized. And with that, then to still understand there were some good reasons to make that change. And once I acknowledged that and was [00:25:00] almost said, listen, I'm not gonna stand here and tell you that I couldn't have done this better, and I could have communicated it differently.

And out of respect for him, I never would have had those conversations with you. And if you're ever in that situation, no one else is gonna know about that either. Like that's just how this works. said, I recognize you're hurting and I get it. And so not being defensive about that and then asking. Can we go on this journey together?

I know you're hurting and can you trust me a little farther and can we go on this journey together? And we ended up making the transition and the leader who ended up in that role, ended up getting promoted again with all of their backing and, , they championed him for the next role. , and it was a good change.

But, you know, the, that kind of conversation, I think when we're talking about vulnerability, Not getting defensive and being able to show up with connection and curiosity. It just makes a huge differe.

Jeremy: What I like about the stories you're sharing here and that you share in the book is [00:26:00] that they do lean in heavily to , those very topics, vulnerability, curiosity, all these things that, that apply beyond leadership, beyond the office, beyond whatever people do for a living. And so, uh, you talked at the beginning about the actionable steps that you offer to leaders, and so I'm just wondering if there's two or three things that you could mention here for someone who's listening who wants to step up and be a better leader at home, better leader at work, whatever, in whatever aspect of their life, what can they do right now to start getting themselves on that path?

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: Yeah. Uh, so, you know, in tomorrow together it's, interesting because that book is really these essays of hope, healing, and humanity is really geared to asking questions and having us stop and reflect and really do some, some soul searching and think about things differently. But, , When it comes to leadership, like one of the places I always start is why are you choosing to lead?

I think this is one of the most fundamental questions we can, we can ask ourselves. I think of five P's. Uh, there, there's people and purpose, like I'm investing in, I wanna lead because I'm investing in the people, supporting the people, , [00:27:00] and the purpose, the what are the results, the objectives we're trying to achieve in any team.

And those are really strong reasons to lead. In fact, both of those of you can combine. Those are about as strong as it. The other three are power, pride, or prestige and the purse or pennies. Uh, so, you know, money, power, and pride, and listen, we're human beings. I have those things. You have those things. I, I know I want money.

Money's good. I can do good in the world with money. , I'm not above liking pride and feeling that sense of status at, at different things. But the reality is, Power is an illusion. You don't have power over other people. That's an illusion you can influence, but you don't have power. The money is never gonna be worth the headache, heartache, and responsibility.

, and that's just life. And in terms of pride or prestige, the letters after your name are never gonna fill the need for status or, or pride that you or that you have. That's gotta come from inside. So if you're choosing to lead from those three, those latter three, [00:28:00] you're gonna have problems. If you're already there, that's what got you there.

Time to reassess and how can you tap into people and purpose and have those as your motivators. How am I serving the people? How am I bringing us together to achieve something bigger than ourselves? Now you've got a chance to start being influential with other people. Uh, so we, we call it landing in the end, like, how am I gonna focus on results and relationships in everything that.

, from there. The second thing I would say, clarity, clarity, clarity. Uh, number one problem that we see in any organization, any leader, you're having trouble, you probably don't have alignment about what success looks like and what I need to do as a member of this team in order to contribute to that success.

So if you can get that kind of clarity and people know that you care about them, that's 85% of the battle right there. And the fun part is the next 15.

Jeremy: All right. Well with that we are about outta time. Where can we learn more about you and your work? , and your a great podcast by?

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: Oh, [00:29:00] absolutely. So, uh, the name of the show that I, uh, uh, host is Leadership Without Losing Your Soul. Uh, and so that's the website Leadership Without Losing Your soul.com. , tomorrow together is available. Wherever books are sold, uh, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, ind Bound, et cetera, and, uh, you can come to let's grow leaders.com to learn more about our work and the work we do with leaders or the book or anything else.

We've got tons of free resources for you.

Jeremy: Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you being on the show with us today. Uh, is, is there anything that we did not touch on that you'd like to leave us with before we wrap things up?

Content-David Dye - Mic 1: My final thought would be the mountain always wins. One of my favorite essays in Tomorrow together is a story of climbing Colorado's 14,000 for peaks. And uh, you know, we set out with good intentions, but we have to maintain the humility that. We are a very small human being in a very large universe. And to maintain back to our initial conversation, that perspective will always serve us and help us, uh, help us stay on a, an effective path.

Zach: Our thanks [00:30:00] to David Dye, author of Tomorrow Together, essays of Hope, healing, and Humanity. You can find links to him and his work in the show notes for this episode@thefitmess.com.

And I love , the perspective of, , asking yourself why you would be a leader. , I know I had a conversation the other day with somebody and was like, Hey, leadership is not sexy. It's not fun. So if you're going to do it, You have to do it for the right reasons. And if you're not doing it for people or purpose, like you said, it's gonna be really hard.

, for me personally, like I wanna give back to the community. I wanna help other people grow in the same way that other people helped me. So, you know, leadership is really, it's very close to me, but if I was just out for the money, , and people were numbers and widgets, that would be.

Jeremy: Yeah. Uh, his other advice about just getting clarity and, and figuring out whether it's for your family or for your office or whatever situation you're trying to lead in. Figuring out what does success mean to that team or to your family, and then really examine how you can contribute to.

Zach: And, and as part of getting clarity, right, [00:31:00] prioritizing what's important, of us get caught up in busy work. That's not actually important, but going back to our last show, make sure that what you're doing is actually important and not just urgent.

Jeremy: And then finally, as we put a really fine point on, vulnerability is such a key these days to being an effective leader, whether it is with your team at work or with your family. Just leading from a place of openness and sharing in that struggle really creates a bond and, and a connection with everyone you're trying to influence because they can relate to you as a human being and not as the person who's just trying to drop the hammer and get things.

Zach: Again, I don't like, I don't like speaking about this part of my life, but I am, I've,

Jeremy: you about to get vulnerable?

Zach: Yeah, well, I've always, I, I try and keep this part separate. , I have always been rated, , extremely high, like in the top three of, , leaders in any company that I've worked at. And I personally believe that being vulnerable with my teams [00:32:00] is probably the single contributing factor to being rated that high all.

Jeremy: Does your arm hurt from patting yourself on the back So hard,

Zach: See, that's why I didn't wanna fucking say it 

Yes, my arm does hurt, but not petting myself on the back.

Jeremy: All right, well see. And that's why guys can't be vulnerable because somebody just takes a shit in your face, whatever you try and open up and, and share. So there you go. And a good example of not being a good leader as someone explains, , a situation of being a good leader, what do you think makes a great leader?

We'd love to hear from you on, uh, what you value in leaders, but it may even better yet, I'd love to hear more horror stories of people that have worked with bad leaders or. Failed on their own to, to be, , a good leader. So, uh, you can share those comments in our Facebook group, which is linked to the show notes for this episode@thefitmess.com, which is where we will be back next week with another episode.

Thanks so much for listening,

Zach: See everyone. Dickhead.

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