224. Open Your Ears: Disney VP Lee Cockerell Shares How to Defeat Anxiety

[00:00:00] Lee Cockerell: Today I know it can be anybody cause I thought I would I was the last person in the world and I can spot it a mile away now when people don't call you back and don't want to meet and, uh, we got to pay more attention because it's happening all around us.

[00:00:13] That is Lee Cockerel, former executive vice president of operations for Walt Disney world. 

[00:00:18] For over 40 years, Lee has led with positivity care. And of course magic. 

[00:00:23] Now he's going to share his personal struggles with anxiety and depression and how he overcame them. 

[00:00:28] Lee Cockerell: you got to take care of yourself and I do. , I get enough sleep. I don't drink alcohol anymore, even though I would like to. I finally overcame that, uh, issue. 

[00:00:39] Lee will explain how he created work-life balance, resisted burnout, and made self-care a priority, even as an executive at the happiest place on earth. 

[00:00:48] Lee Cockerell: why do you take care of yourself? I thought about that. I said, you know, it's not for me when I'm dead, I'm going to feel fine. It's my grandkids are going to be.

[00:00:57] I want to be there for them.

[00:00:58] And by the end of this episode, you'll [00:01:00] understand why you should make your mental health a priority, how to create time for self-care even in leadership roles and Lee's tactics for overcoming anxiety and depression. So, if you're ready to beat the mental health struggles you're dealing with, like Lee did stick around for this conversation. 

[00:01:16] All right. So this is a men's mental health podcast. When Zach first approached me a long time ago about inviting Lee Cockrell on the show. I thought, well, business leadership, I mean, this, this guy has done it all. He's been to the mountain top. He was in charge of Disney world. What does he know about mental health struggles? Why would we talk to him? 

[00:01:55] And as I dug a little bit deeper and got to know more about his story, I was surprised to find out the guy that [00:02:00] ran the magic kingdom. Struggles as much as you and I do. And maybe even more with depression and anxiety. 

[00:02:07] And when he discovered that he was as surprised as anybody, because he didn't realize how widespread these mental health issues were. 

[00:02:15] But he wisely followed the advice of the experts around him, implemented lifestyle changes and was able to reverse the effects of the anxiety and depression. That completely shut his life down for as much as a year. 

[00:02:27] And brought all kinds of other problems into his life. 

[00:02:29] So when I discovered that someone who has achieved the kind of success that he has and lived the kind of life he has. Also struggles with the same things I do. And has found a way to live with them and manage them. And for the most part, beat them. I had to find out more. 

[00:02:44] Not to mention, and maybe you don't know this about us, but Zach and I are big Disney fans.

[00:02:49] For Zach, it's probably something he should be medicated for. 

[00:02:52] So he was much more familiar with our guests work than I was. And maybe more than you are. 

[00:02:56] So we started by asking him to tell us about who he is. 

[00:02:59] And how he [00:03:00] found himself in charge of the magic kingdom. 

[00:03:02] Lee Cockerell: Hi, I'm Lee Cockerell. I'm the former executive vice president of operations for Walt Disney World, and I live in Orlando, Florida. I have one wife for 55 years, and uh, one son, three grandkids, and they all like me a lot because I have Venmo. So,

[00:03:20] Jeremy: Through a, through a

[00:03:22] Lee Cockerell: they keep in touch, so

[00:03:25] Jeremy: Venmo exclusively,

[00:03:27] Lee Cockerell: You want your family to keep in touch, get Venmo.

[00:03:30] Zach: That's a, that's. I'm going to use that.

[00:03:32] Jeremy: that's the best ad for Venmo I've ever heard in my life. That's

[00:03:35] Lee Cockerell: it is. But, uh, yeah, I was in the hotel business forever. Started in 1965 with the Washington Hilton after I got out of the Army. And as a waiter. And, uh, I tried to be the best little waiter they ever had. I'd never been in a hotel before. And when I did that, all of a sudden they promoted me. So, that just shows that if you got a good attitude and you're reliable, you can...

[00:03:57] You don't need to know much. You just get ahead. [00:04:00] And, uh, I did that. Worked for Hilton eight years. And I, uh, worked for Marriott for 17 years. And then I got recruited by Disney in 1990 to go to France and open the, uh, restaurants and food facility. And I came back to Orlando in 93 and I was put in charge of all the operations there.

[00:04:17] So from, uh, yeah, I kept them fooled for 42 years.

[00:04:22] Jeremy: okay. That's an interesting way to phrase that because, you know, here I am talking to somebody who ran one of the most amazing places I've ever been to in my life and I love it so much. And , you mentioned the idea of being, having them fooled. Did you deal with imposter syndrome through all of that?

[00:04:37] Is that something you struggled with?

[00:04:39] Lee Cockerell: No, I made sure everybody knew I didn't know what I was doing. And literally, I said, you know, my job was not to do anything. It was to get things done. So I hired great people that were really amazing. Engineers and retail and food people and security and transportation. And, uh, if you [00:05:00] take your time, hire the right people and let them alone.

[00:05:03] And they'll just be available when they need you. You have to do that Disney because it's so complex. And so we don't even know how it works.

[00:05:12] It just works. And it has to be through people trusting you. You don't get anything done if people don't want to work with you. And, uh, that's how we did it. 

[00:05:20] Jeremy: Well, and I think you were kind of half joking, but the fact that you said, no, I just told him I had no idea what I was doing. Do you think that for other people that do struggle with imposter syndrome, if they just put it out there, like, Hey, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing, guys. Let's rally together and make this happen.

[00:05:33] Is that maybe the antidote to imposter

[00:05:36] Lee Cockerell: Well, I think the way I thought about it was, uh, I say to people, here's how we work, and here's how you work with me. I'm not an expert in this area. I'm hiring you. You've got a master's degree, a PhD in engineering and all. I'm here to help you with any, uh, you know, bureaucracy or HR issues and hiring more and all that stuff.

[00:05:57] But otherwise, I, uh, don't ask [00:06:00] me. I don't know anything about engineering. And I don't know anything about security. Getting 300 buses to pick people up every day. I don't know how they do that, but I had somebody who didn't know. And I think that's the key. I think, two, one, if you want to make people think you're the expert, you're going to fail because everybody already knows you're not. mean, you might as well tell people you don't know what you're doing because they know. 

[00:06:21] All right. So imposter syndrome doesn't seem to be on the top of your list of mental health problems. But you have struggled with anxiety and depression over the years.

[00:06:29] Lee Cockerell: I went through anxiety and depression back in 08 with my wife cause she was sick and almost died and I had to take care of her for 2 years. I understand it clearly and I went through it one more time with another family situation and I would tell you that uh, today I know it can be anybody cause I thought I would I was the last person in the world and I can spot it a mile away now when people don't call you back and don't want to meet and, uh, we got to pay more attention because it's happening all around us.

[00:06:58] I would say anxiety is [00:07:00] at an all time high level in the world right now. People are really worried about a lot of things and probably have right to be. 

[00:07:08] So what are some of the ways you manage your anxiety

[00:07:10] Lee Cockerell: , you got to take care of yourself and I do. , I get enough sleep. I don't drink alcohol anymore, even though I would like to. I finally overcame that, uh, issue. I quit seven times, but I, uh, did. And, uh, I watched my diet, and, um, The sleep is the key in my mind. If you're not getting sleep, it goes downhill very quick. It's just, uh, everything's magnified. So, uh, sleep, man, I'm into sleep. I keep the room at 67 degrees dark. I don't eat three hours before I go to bed. , don't need a piece of cheesecake for thinking I'll feel better. No, you won't. Um, all the research is out there and help is out there, but and people have access [00:08:00] to it. I'm not sure they pay attention to it because the implementation in life is hard.

[00:08:04] Knowing is easy. ,

[00:08:05] Zach: I was going to ask you about that. So, one of the lines that you have in your book and it's on your website and I absolutely fell in love with it is, it's not magic that makes it work. It's the way we work that makes it magic. And I know you were speaking about, , things at Disney in some sense, but, you know, I read that and I think about, , mental health issues and anxiety and depression.

[00:08:26] And I feel like it applies just as much there too, doesn't it?

[00:08:30] Lee Cockerell: I think it does because, you know, if I wake up in the morning, I feel good. You know, the number 1 reason apparently for overeating is. , not feeling well, , and, uh, putting things off, because when you don't feel well, you don't do hard things. You know, you just kind of justify, well, maybe later tomorrow, or I'll just lie down on the couch for a while, or.

[00:08:51] I'll have some piece of cheesecake to feel better and then in the evening, I'll have a couple of glass of wine to calm down and then you don't sleep if you don't keep rolling through it because [00:09:00] you know how you how much you get done when you wake up in the morning. You feel great. It's amazing. It's unbelievable.

[00:09:06] And I would say today, since I really got focused on those things, my energy level is I feel great. I'm 80 next year. And, uh, . I'm in better shape than most of these 30 year olds I, uh, see at the coffee shop in the morning. And I think it's because we understand that these things all add up.

[00:09:29] It took me a long time to learn it, but, uh, because in my early career, I just wanted to be successful and make money and it was about me and get a company car and, you know, and I was stressed out all the time. I needed a shot of vodka when I got home and that started the vodka turned into an argument and then no sleep and then, you know, I mean, it's just, it's a cycle.

[00:09:55] So, uh, The solutions are there. They're not that hard. It just takes [00:10:00] discipline , and realizing how much better it'll be. That's the problem. You know, your brain lies to you. It says, you need a cookie. No, you don't.

[00:10:07] Zach: Yeah.

[00:10:09] Lee Cockerell: some cheesecake. No, you don't. Don't believe your brain.

[00:10:12] It's a big liar

[00:10:14] Jeremy: I think you've got a craving for cheesecake right now. This is a, this is a recurring theme in this

[00:10:18] Lee Cockerell: like my wife has it everywhere. And I don't, I keep Watermelon and cantaloupe chunks in my fridge and a little yogurt. And if I can just get a little sweet something, it goes up to my brain and says, okay, you're okay. The brain doesn't know if that's a piece of watermelon or a cookie.

[00:10:33] Jeremy: Yeah. You're right. You're

[00:10:34] Lee Cockerell: So I fool it. 

[00:10:36] I mean, that's where mental health. You've got to really think deeply if what you believe and what you think is really true and, uh, you got to feel good to do that. 

[00:10:45] Jeremy: One of the things I wanted to ask you about was, uh, I've been listening to your podcast, uh, creating Disney magic, uh, uh, you and Jody do an amazing job with the show. And I was listening to, there were a couple of episodes that were published recently. One, I believe was newer.

[00:10:56] One was a replay from a few years ago where you talked about your, [00:11:00] struggles with anxiety and depression. And I'm just curious. I mean, I, from what I heard in that episode, you guys got a ton of feedback from people that, you know, just appreciated you opening up in that way. How important do you think it is for somebody who is struggling with either of these things and, and feels the way you did, like I'm the only one, nobody else deals with this, this, this isn't common.

[00:11:19] Most people aren't dealing with this. How important is it for them to open up to other people and to share that struggle, to find solutions to what they're going through?

[00:11:27] Lee Cockerell: Yeah. A lot of that's the reason they're in it. It's because they keep everything in and they go around. People think life is perfect and their life is perfect. And we know that's not true. And, uh, I just feel better when I just. Lay it out there. I don't have to keep it to myself. When I was going through it, I told people, they said, come and have coffee.

[00:11:47] I said, I don't want to have coffee. I don't want to see you. I don't want to do anything. And I'm going, I'm crazy right now. I'm working this out. I quit everything I was doing for a year. I canceled all my speeches, all my work, and all I did was I went to a [00:12:00] psychologist on Mondays.

[00:12:01] I saw a psychiatrist every two weeks. I went to acupuncture on Wednesdays. I exercised every day at four o'clock, even though I didn't want to, because that makes you... Feel better. Even my psychologist told me at four o'clock every day after you exercise, Lee, just sit and worry about everything you want to worry about, worry about the finances, the stock market.

[00:12:21] And then when you wake up at three in the morning, you will have already worked through those things that they're not true that your brain is just giving you a bunch of crap. And so you've got to really, it's your full time job is to get over it. Cause if you don't fight it, I guarantee you it gets worse. 

[00:12:39] I would say you've got to, just like the doctor, you've got to let them know you've got this problem and you need help. , we're seeing more people do that. , even the military is getting better at it. and by the way, it's your kids. It's teenage girls, it's grade school kids, it's in every part. Your parents may be going through it, your grandparents as they get older. [00:13:00] I'm telling you, it's, uh, it's real. It's widespread and often you won't see it.

[00:13:07] When I ask people, how you doing? They say, great. I say, that's the biggest lie in America. People are not doing great. 

[00:13:13] That is the darkest place you will live. Is when you're suffering from anxiety and depression. 

[00:13:19] Zach: Fortunately I'm in a position of leadership where I work and I. I am vulnerable with, you know, with my people. I'm vulnerable with my staff. I'm like, hey, you know, I do suffer from anxiety.

[00:13:28] I have depression. That vulnerability has led them to, you know, some of my one on ones with my direct reports turn into, , some counseling sessions, , not work related in any way, shape, or form.

[00:13:39] .

[00:13:39] but that's not the way things work.

[00:13:41] Like when you were, , at Disney world, , in the business world, or maybe I'm wrong, like how important is vulnerability . To a leader, talk to me a little bit about how you see a leader should be vulnerable to his people or even the people around you.

[00:13:56] Lee Cockerell: Yeah, I think you're right. I think when I was at Disney, [00:14:00] I didn't happen when I was at Disney. It was after I retired, but, uh, I probably would have covered it up. I mean, I think that's corn and natural and normal. And I think a bunch of, if you, if we knew how many people in the workplace are, uh, using drugs and, uh, all kinds of painkillers and marijuana and on the job and, , because people are, are doing something to feel better.

[00:14:25] Drinking, , because it's covered up. I hopefully, , it, it'll be easier for people to speak up about it, , today after I went through it, I wouldn't be able to do that, , , but you don't because of insecurity. It's a tough decision whether you're teaching people or you're afraid of being, uh, judged that, well, maybe he's not the guy on the job, he's having a lot of problems and, and, but, uh, yeah, it's, I'd say that you're right.

[00:14:54] Although women are much better at this. , women go for help, men don't. You [00:15:00] know, as I said, women will go see a psychologist or a psychiatrist very quickly, and a man will drink more, and argue more, and sleep more, and abuse, and divorce.

[00:15:13] All kinds of things. So, you know, the men are the always the problem.

[00:15:20] Zach: hmm.

[00:15:21] Lee Cockerell: Many. It is. It's 'cause we're, we think we're a big deal and we're superhuman. We're superman and, , we can do anything. But it's going to change because everybody's realizing that it's so widespread now. 

[00:15:34] All right. So Lee, what if we, you know, you've tried all of the things you've mentioned, you're sleeping better. You're getting your exercise in, you're working on your diet. What if all of that just isn't moving the needle. 

[00:15:43] What else can you do?

[00:15:44] Lee Cockerell: The one thing that helps a lot is when you got somebody that understands it and supports you and, uh, kind of, you know, if you get a hug, that's what I always said, sometimes you need a hug and luckily I had my wife supporting me or I've probably gone over the dip and I mean, and [00:16:00] I'm telling you, you sit, when you go through it, you think about, can I, how long can I live like this?

[00:16:04] I mean, it's that dark.

[00:16:06] Jeremy: Oh, yeah.

[00:16:07] Lee Cockerell: . And then you go to Dr. Google and find out it. It's even worse when it's not so, but to go for professional help, I would say, because it's, you know, I read 70, 80 percent of anxiety and depression can be, uh, improved with, uh, medication and, uh, talk therapy. 

[00:16:26] I remember my psychiatrist saying, Lee, you will get better. He said, time will take care of this. I loved to hear that. I felt really good when I walked out the door. You will get better. 

[00:16:37] Jeremy: so the other thing I wanted to ask is just about sort of what you alluded to in the beginning is that you spent so much of your early life in the grind, in the hustle, want the company car, want the promotion, want the job.

[00:16:49] And it seemed to lead to this breaking point for you. So if there's somebody who is 20 year old Lee out there, that's grinding, hustling, wants the company car, wants the promotion, wants all the things. [00:17:00] Is there a balance to it? What advice would you give 20 year old Lee to avoid the pain that you found?

[00:17:06] Lee Cockerell: I will say the key to help a lot of my life was Taking this time management course back 40 years ago and learning how to uh, really think every day. Are you spending time against the things that really are matter? Are you spending enough time with your son? Are you getting home enough for dinner every week?

[00:17:24] , do you tell your wife how much you love her or appreciate her? Or do you exercise? Not, but not when you feel like it, because that's never and, um, do you schedule it and getting more clarity around? You got time and you got these things. Now, do they match up? And that's what helped me because I wasn't thoughtful at all. It was about me and about me getting promoted and about my success. And, and I didn't have a good balance on making sure I was doing things on purpose. I would say, you know, calling my mother every Sunday.

[00:17:58] I started after that. [00:18:00] Every Sunday. And I called my grandmother right after that. And I remember the guy teaching time and he said, Lee, this is not for your mother. This is for you. You're going to have regrets one day when she just dies. And you hadn't talked to her in three months, three years 

[00:18:14] You know, they've proven it.

[00:18:15] People who have dinner together with their kids just a couple times a week, those kids get in less trouble, they do better in school. you don't realize the power you have on others as well as yourself. 

[00:18:26] And if you take care of yourself and the thing again, why do you take care of yourself? I thought about that. I said, you know, it's not for me when I'm dead, I'm going to feel fine. It's my grandkids are going to be.

[00:18:38] I want to be there for them. I want to go to their wedding. I want to, other people are going to suffer. As my wife said, Lee, take care of yourself so you can take care of us. We need

[00:18:47] Jeremy: got to hit that Venmo button, right?

[00:18:48] Lee Cockerell: We need you around. And then take care of your business. And then if you have any time left over, then you can go do some stupid stuff, but take care of yourself, your family and your [00:19:00] business. And then you can go help Kim Kardashian or Taylor Swift or whatever you want to do. 

[00:19:06] Zach: Your book time management magic has changed my life. Like I, I have a day planner upstairs, I use it every day, like, well now I map everything out. Like I, I prioritize things, but I want to hear from you and you said it earlier, , That when you look at the list of all the things that you have to do, take care of yourself, your family, your job, your, all of those things, how do you prioritize that stuff?

[00:19:28] I mean, we all have 24 hours in the, in the day. How do you go about that yourself?

[00:19:33] Lee Cockerell: You know, the things that I want to get done are things that are on my mind, you know, things that are, I keep thinking about and could kick myself for, , , could be calling up somebody and telling them sorry about that because it's on your mind and you've got to pick those things that will make you feel better.

[00:19:50] , and I schedule it. My wife and I have a trainer. We work out on Mondays and Thursdays with strength and agility and balance because we don't want to fall and break a hip. , [00:20:00] that's pretty much the beginning of the end when you do that. So we do that. , we schedule our physicals.

[00:20:05] We schedule our doctor appointments. I get my teeth cleaned twice a year. Like they recommend. Cause I listened to experts.

[00:20:13] Jeremy: Yeah.

[00:20:14] Lee Cockerell: I floss every night because they told me to,

[00:20:16] Jeremy: Right.

[00:20:17] Lee Cockerell: , there's certain things you just work into your life. Some people buy a treadmill after their bypass surgery or fire extinguisher after the house burns down, uh, you got to anticipate what can go wrong if I don't do this. And I think every day also to sit and think about. What did I not do so well yesterday? I could have done better just going, you know, why did I say that to my wife?

[00:20:39] Why didn't I follow up with that lady? Like I said, I would do why didn't I return that call? But so, you know, they call it reflection, reflecting on yesterday. Could you have been better? We know we could have.

[00:20:53] Jeremy: yeah. beat yesterday for a better tomorrow. Right?

[00:20:55] Lee Cockerell: Yeah, I mean, you've got to think.

[00:20:57] That's what this thing's for. [00:21:00] You're supposed to use it.

[00:21:01] Jeremy: That's what that's for. God, I've been doing this wrong a long

[00:21:04] Zach: I just thought it was telling me what to go eat when I

[00:21:06] Jeremy: All right. 

[00:21:06] Zach: actually hungry. 

[00:21:07] Jeremy: which cookie or cheesecake should I eat next? So that's, I thought that's all it

[00:21:10] Lee Cockerell: guarantee you, most of the day, it's Misleading you.

[00:21:14] Jeremy: Yeah. Lee, thank

[00:21:16] Lee Cockerell: control.

[00:21:17] Jeremy: Thank you so much for doing this with us. Can we help promote anything? Do you want to mention the podcast, the books? What do you got going on that we can drive people to, to find out more about you?

[00:21:24] Lee Cockerell: Yeah, just send them to my, uh, website, leecockerel. com. Everything's there if they want to listen to the podcast. There's 500 episodes. I have a new newsletter goes out every month. And then we have a Cockrell Academy and that's I mean, there's a lot of stuff The books are there, but it's good stuff.

[00:21:40] Not only my stuff your stuff. The stuff is available So people who are not getting themselves smarter and more prepared and improving their life It's your own fault because if there's something you don't know, it's your own fault

[00:21:55] Jeremy: Yeah.

[00:21:55] Lee Cockerell: You know, don't blame me. You don't know look it up, 

[00:21:58] that's it. And, uh, [00:22:00] what you guys are doing is the right subject. It's really important. It's really important.

[00:22:05] Jeremy: Thank you. That, that means a lot.

[00:22:07] Lee Cockerell: Ida, actually.

[00:22:08] Zach: I'll, I'll just, I'll, I'll give you one little piece of information about me, , my problem for like dealing with my emotions and my depression and anxiety. It's not alcohol. It's not generally food. I literally go to Disney world a lot.

[00:22:22] Jeremy: It's true. He's got a problem.

[00:22:24] Zach: I do.

[00:22:24] Lee Cockerell: that before, that, you know, some of the people that were after 9 11, I have a friend that worked on the recovery up there, you know, sorting through it all. And he had so many emotional problems after that, that he actually came to Disney once for a month and worked part time. He said that was what he needed.

[00:22:44] That, um. environment of where,

[00:22:46] Jeremy: Yeah.

[00:22:47] Lee Cockerell: and soldiers on leave do too, their families, they come to Disney. It's amazing. Before they get sent off to Afghanistan or wherever they're going, they came to Disney as a family. It was just kind of this [00:23:00] thing that they could think about, a positive thing to think about, which I always found amazing that, uh, it's that kind of place.

[00:23:07] Jeremy: It really is. There's, there's nothing like it. When, when you are there, you are literally, I mean, I mean, not literally on another planet, but it is, it is a whole different life experience when you walk through that gate.

[00:23:17] Lee Cockerell: Yeah. And you just easily give us your credit card and that's

[00:23:20] Jeremy: A little too easily sometimes, if I'm being honest.

[00:23:23] Lee Cockerell: mental illness when the bill comes. But, uh, other than that, you'll be fine, but good to talk to you guys.

[00:23:29] Jeremy: Thank you so much, Lee. This has been great. We really appreciate it.

[00:23:32] Zach: Thank you.

[00:23:32] And our thanks to Lee Cockerell. You can get his podcast newsletter and all of the things that he has to offer@leecockerelldotcomandintheshownotesforthisepisodeatthefitness.com. 

[00:23:43] And I guess the main takeaway there then, and I think he articulated it well, is the idea that self care isn't just about self care. It's not just about taking care of you. It's about taking care of you so you can better take care of those around you, your family, your colleagues, the people that depend on you. We talk about [00:24:00] this a lot, but you know, if you're trying to pour from an empty cup, You're just going to end up exhausted, empty and burnt out. So take the time, start slow. One thing at a time, find ways to take better care of you so that you can be there for your loved ones. 

[00:24:14] But that is going to do it for us. Thank you so much for listening. We do have a newsletter. If you'd like to subscribe and learn more about these kinds of tactics, things you can do to manage your mental health. We offer those in our newsletter that comes out twice a week. You can get that@thefitmass.com and that's where we'll be back with a brand new episode in just a few days. Thank you so much for listening.

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