222. Man Enough to Embrace Our Emotions - Justin Baldoni Discusses Creating New Masculine Ideals

[00:00:00] Justin: we're starved for it, both with other people and with ourselves.

[00:00:03] Jeremy: And we have no idea how to ask for it. And we don't know 

[00:00:06] Justin: how to ask for it because we're told we're not allowed to.

[00:00:09] That's Justin Baldoni as an actor, filmmaker, author, and podcaster. He's on a mission to redefine masculinity for the modern world. Today. Justin's going to challenge how we define manhood. And share a new vision 

[00:00:22] focused on embracing vulnerability. 

[00:00:23] Justin: I remember distinct feelings of wanting to say something, wanting to be a certain way, wanting to feel or to cry or to just be and having a part of me saying, No, you can't do that.

[00:00:40] He'll share practical tips for how to start connecting to the full spectrum of your emotions. So you can better manage your mental health. And by the end of this episode, you're going to learn three things. 

[00:00:49] First you'll understand the generational trauma around masculinity, that men inherit. . Then Justin will map out how to move beyond expectations that leave men feeling ashamed or inadequate. 

[00:00:59] [00:01:00] He'll also share everyday habits to help you reconnect to your feelings without judgment. So if you're ready to understand a whole new way of viewing masculinity. Stick around.

[00:01:10] 

[00:01:29] Jeremy: This is a topic that, that means a lot to me because in a lot of ways it's the foundation of this show.

[00:01:37] It was the fact that you and I were able to have pretty open and vulnerable conversations about our struggles to, to be healthy, to be happy. That gave us the idea to do this publicly and to share the struggle that is life and trying to take care of yourself. But it is so interesting how there are these really extreme ideas of what masculinity is, what it means to be a man, [00:02:00] where that comes from, how we're raised, , and how that really seeps into every aspect of being a man for your entire life.

[00:02:10] Yeah, 

[00:02:11] Zach: and not just from the man's perspective, right? There's males and females out there who expect a man to be a certain way. So, it's a lot to live up to when it just doesn't come 

[00:02:23] Jeremy: naturally to you. And I do want to acknowledge, because I can hear the voice in my own head, I can hear, , the women and the truly oppressed people of the world hearing a couple of white guys, middle aged white guys, complaining about how much of a struggle it is to be a man.

[00:02:39] I get that we're talking about this from a point of pretty extreme privilege. However, struggle is relative and it is as real for us as other struggle is for other people who have it much worse. So I do want to acknowledge that. However, there are things about being a man that are difficult, , [00:03:00] that, at least for me, I know was rooted in my upbringing.

[00:03:03] I was raised with a very hardworking Emotionally relatively unavailable, that kind of stuff and being in that environment and looking up to a dad who was your, your pretty typical tough guy dad, knowing that wasn't me, I think laid some foundation for not being enough, not being man enough, not being good enough, not being strong enough, all the things.

[00:03:27] And it is funny to look back now and realize there were so many lessons he was trying to teach me. That I was blowing off because they I didn't identify with being the kind of man He wanted me to be and it's just interesting how that is something that has followed me my entire life and has led into Uh, other issues like imposter syndrome and just generally not feeling like I'm a good enough person, good enough man, all those things where if I had been raised to think how you are is how you're supposed to be, I think that would have set me up for [00:04:00] a more balanced way of being, I guess.

[00:04:02] Zach: Mine was, mine was kind of similar, but, um, I had a weird situation. My dad was by no means perfect. He was born in 1928, grew up in the depression. He was 50 when I was born. So like, you know, he was already an older. older guy, and he was very set in his ways and, you know, typical guy from first half of the century.

[00:04:24] But in comparison to my mom, like, he was a rock star, like, far and above. Like, the bar, the bar that my mom sat was, 

[00:04:32] Jeremy: like, below ground. Yeah, I was gonna say, it wasn't that he was such a rock star. It's just, like you said, the, uh, 

[00:04:38] Zach: he didn't, he didn't have to do much. The distance. The distance between the bottom and okay was really far, but yeah, no, he was, it was, it was very similar.

[00:04:49] I remember when I was. Eight or nine, I was roller skating and I fell and I, I hurt my wrist and I went four days of like, you know, my [00:05:00] wrist really hurts dad, it really, he's like, ah, just, you know, put some ice on it, you'll be fine, you'll be all right. And, uh, after like four days of complaining, he's like, all right, we'll go to the hospital.

[00:05:09] Well, it turns out my wrist was broken, right? And that happened again with the other wrist. It was really interesting. He showed me that to be a man, you had to be, , out of touch with your emotions, not vulnerable, mental health was not a thing. You just, you know, you get up, you rub some dirt on it, you keep moving.

[00:05:27] But then later on, when he got sick and he was about to die, we started having some really vulnerable conversations. And when I say really vulnerable, not like you and I having them, they were like, Just cutting the edge a little bit, but it was really deep for him and I. And that was like where I really felt I connected with him, which is kind of sad because I only had that for a couple 

[00:05:50] Jeremy: of months.

[00:05:51] Well, and we should acknowledge too, that for our dads and I'm not sure the age gap between them, but for previous generations of [00:06:00] dads, there were not bookstores full of information about how to talk to your kids about their feelings and how to get kids to be emotionally intelligent. Like. It was a different world, both from an emphasis on paying attention to emotions, knowing that they were as critical a thing as we now believe them to be.

[00:06:21] It just wasn't normal. That wasn't something that guys did. My dad was his, and I know to this day, he believes he did what dads do. He went to work. He earned the money. That was his thing. That was his way of contributing as a father. So to compare my knowledge and what I know and what's available to me to his is, it's just completely unfair.

[00:06:44] It doesn't stop me from doing it. It doesn't stop me from judging a lot of the decisions that were made and the impacts it had on my life. But I do have to, in the middle of that sort of internal mental rage, go calm the fuck down. He had a different deal. Like he likes to [00:07:00] give himself credit for being better than his dad because his dad was a piece of shit.

[00:07:03] And I, to some degree do the same where I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm being a better dad than my dad was to me. So, so Pat myself on the back, but I do have to acknowledge that it, you know, he came from Mars compared to what I'm doing with the information I have available to me. Yeah. The access to the 

[00:07:21] Zach: resources that we have today is incredible.

[00:07:24] Like it's a, it's a game changer. I mean, there's no, it doesn't surprise me that. The chain of parenting is being broken as, as big as it is right now. Like there's still a lot of people that aren't interested in actually learning and reading those resources, but you know, you and I are parenting so differently than our parents did.

[00:07:43] And you know, all my friends, a lot of people I know they're doing the same thing. So it's, it's really great to 

[00:07:49] Jeremy: see that. Well, and speaking of the resources, I mean, you know, we're going to get into a really interesting conversation in just a minute about masculinity. And I've been involved in some online sort of debates or discussions [00:08:00] about what masculinity is.

[00:08:01] Is it toxic inherently and all these things? And there are so many people that are hung up on the, you know, it's a definition. It's just like a number. You know, you can't change the definition of something. Well, first of all, we change the definition of words all the time. That's a very common occurrence.

[00:08:16] However, in this case, anyone who's hanging on to the definition of masculinity as their They're a root in what it means to be a man. You haven't read the definition because it literally, and I'm pulling it up right now on the, on the dictionary online. 

[00:08:32] Zach: One of those resources that we as dads have 

[00:08:34] Jeremy: access to.

[00:08:34] Right. Definition of masculine. Male having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man. 

[00:08:42] Zach: All right. So no emotions, right? 

[00:08:44] Jeremy: No, not only that, like not only that, having qualities appropriate to, or usually associated with a man that is open to evolution, that is open to change. That is something that the five characteristics of being a man are not there in the [00:09:00] definition.

[00:09:00] So you can hang on to your definition, but it's not that one. Yeah. And I just think it's important. Here's what I know. Anytime that I have not been open to change that I have not been open to another perspective, to another way of seeing the world, I've caused myself struggle and heartache and difficulty holding on to things and holding on to your beliefs and holding on to these ideas that are taught to us and are sort of forced upon us, closes you off from a broader perspective and a broader experience in your life.

[00:09:36] And so So I would challenge anyone who's hearing this and going, Oh, this is, that's not what it means to be a man. That's not manly enough. That's not masculine. You're hanging on to something that is going to cause struggle for you. So I would hope that you would open yourself up to the idea that, that what you believe it is to be a man may be something else.

[00:09:56] Well, and 

[00:09:56] Zach: also think about it this way, what it is to be [00:10:00] a man can include all the things that we include as being a man. Yeah. But what we're talking about. Is adding things to it, opening your mind to additional things, right? You can still be all of those things. You can still be strong. You can still earn the money.

[00:10:16] You can write, you can do all that stuff. You can still be manly in that way, but there's a whole nother side. That's going to allow you to grow as a human being. As a person to be a better dad to be a better husband to be a better whatever to whoever you are, right? It's just adding things and opening up to new experiences 

[00:10:38] Jeremy: and that is a great place to get into our interview We had the opportunity to talk with Justin Baldoni.

[00:10:43] A lot of people know him from his role on Jane the Virgin however, I know him as the author of Man Enough, Undefining My Masculinity. We had a fantastic conversation about all of these things. Where we get our ideas about masculinity, why they are so difficult to [00:11:00] live with, and how to sort of change your own relationship with the word and what it means to be a man.

[00:11:08] Justin: Yeah, I think it started for me where it starts for most of us young boys, which is as a young boy. You know, growing up in America, I remember being socialized, but I didn't know what was, I didn't know what socialization was. I honestly didn't even know what socialization really was probably until, you know, five years ago.

[00:11:33] Because you grow up, you know, you don't really think about socialization, right? You don't really, uh, it's not something that is ever present in our minds. We're just consuming, we're consuming, we're consuming, we're taking things in and we're learning, but we're never taught to actually question what we're learning, where it comes from or why.

[00:11:53] So growing up, I remember distinct feelings of wanting to say something, [00:12:00] wanting to be a certain way, wanting to feel or to cry or to. You know, to, to just be and having a part of me saying, No, you can't do that. You can't be that way. There'll be a consequence. If you do that. Um, don't say that. Don't let him see that.

[00:12:19] Don't let them see that. Don't tell her that. Right. There's just this, like, it's, it's this constant, it's this barrage of, uh, this internal police force of masculinity that just governs our every action. Or like non action, our thoughts, our subconscious thoughts. And, but I remember that feeling, I couldn't put a word on it.

[00:12:45] I couldn't tell you, uh, what age I was. I just remember a lot of these feelings and then growing up, you know, you, you, you're taught to be mean to the girls. How do the girls know that we like them? Well, we got to be mean [00:13:00] to them, of course. 

[00:13:02] Jeremy: How do they know if you don't hit them in the head with a lunchbox?

[00:13:04] I mean, it's so obvious. 

[00:13:06] Justin: And when you think about the things that we learned, you just go like, like if aliens were to come visit us, they'd be like, what is wrong with you guys? You have these feelings, you're not allowed to feel these things. You express your like by being mean, you know, it's just, It would be very, very confusing, I think, to another species to see the way that we govern ourselves and just the way that we allow ourselves to be trained, really, to be robots and not human beings.

[00:13:38] So all I, all I have to say is a long ass answer to your question, but maybe it's because I've done so many interviews already today. I'm just feeling comfortable with you guys and I could just not be super eloquent. Uh, I just remember feeling like who I knew I was wasn't. Wasn't acceptable. I wasn't allowed to be who I wanted to be because if I if I Did I'd be [00:14:00] having to trade in an element of an allegiance to my gender?

[00:14:03] I'd be having to hand back that card that told me that I was one of the boys, right? Because part of being in the boys club is no girls allowed. But I like girls. I liked girls before I was sexually attracted to girls. I was more comfortable with girls before I wanted to sleep with girls. I liked talking to them.

[00:14:21] I liked acting and, and playing dress up and, but I also liked sports and trucks, so there's no space. It's like you have to pick one and that's a false choice. It's a false narrator. 

[00:14:33] Zach: I resonate to a lot of what you're just saying. I, I, as we started doing a little bit of research for this talk, you know, I found your, your Ted talk and I was watching it and I started to tear up a little bit just because there was somebody saying things that I was feeling.

[00:14:48] And. You know, the programming that you talk about kicked in immediately. And I wiped my eyes and looked around to make sure nobody saw that. So I'd love to hear your, you know, how, how do we [00:15:00] kind of break that cycle? Like this, this programming that we all have, it's so embedded, but how do you take a step back?

[00:15:06] How do you start, you know, moving away from 

[00:15:08] Justin: that? First of all, thank you for saying that. And that's been one of the sweetest things is when I get messages from men like you. Who are like your TED talk brought me to tears because I, you were saying things that I feel and have felt, but I've never had permission to say, and I go, like, who, sorry, who the fuck decides what we say or what we don't say, who decides that we can't talk about this stuff.

[00:15:37] And it's just, it's just, that's how deep we got to go back. So the first thing that came to mind when you just asked that question. And by the way, one of the things for me going on this journey, I don't have like pre written answers and talking points that I just repeat over and over again, I love to explore and to kind of learn in real time.

[00:15:57] Really, that's what the book is. So because [00:16:00] otherwise I'd be so bored out of my mind doing all these interviews that I would just be saying the same stuff. So when things pop in, I try to honor that. Even if they might be not fully formed. So this might be a very, one of my most ineloquent interviews. So I apologize to the listener, but bear with me, uh, cause I'm learning too, and we'll figure this out as we go.

[00:16:19] So what came to my mind is how do we deprogram anything? There's a couple options. You can just unplug it, which doesn't really always work, or you can take the time. And, but the first thing that popped into my mind was the idea of the gym, right? That's something that I think a lot of us men can relate to.

[00:16:40] Is all of us to a certain extent want to be healthy, whether we want to be healthy and ripped and have an eight pack or a six pack and like big broad shoulders and look like, you know, Adonis, or whether we just want to be healthy so that we can play with our kids. We can all at some point relate to the work that goes into the gym.[00:17:00] 

[00:17:00] Or, you know, sports in some way, or if it's not sports, it's academics. It's something we're always striving for something. And oftentimes for me, I have to, I have to deprogram certain muscles. As I'm getting older and I've had injuries, or maybe I'm doing a workout the wrong way, and I hurt myself, or I have imbalances in my body, so when I'm in the gym, I'm constantly thinking about deprogramming and reprogramming, right?

[00:17:32] Like, you know, if we're doing a, if we're on the bench press, and I'm not hitting the muscle I want to hit and I'm like, Oh, wow, I've been doing this wrong for 10 years. I need to adjust and some man comes up to me and says, Hey, your trainer, we hire a trainer to help us deprogram and reprogram, right? It's cool there.

[00:17:50] He's like, Oh, no, you want to do it this way? Like, Oh, man, I haven't been doing it that way my whole life. Let me adjust a little bit. That is deprogramming and reprogramming to make sure that we're having the [00:18:00] most, uh, we're having the most efficient workout possible. But then what is a workout? A workout is.

[00:18:07] Us, um, uh, intently on purpose, forcing growth, it's walking into resistance, it's lifting something heavy. It's being uncomfortable on purpose in order to achieve a certain result. The difference is we support the gym as men. We shame the emotional gym because you can't see the results immediately because the results don't garner us, uh, the.

[00:18:39] The points in the patriarchy, the results don't, don't garner us respect and that like alpha body and presence that maybe we think we want or that we've been sold the spiritual, the emotional gym is deprogramming and going in and asking ourselves why [00:19:00] going to therapy if we can afford it, having uncomfortable conversations with friends like you guys.

[00:19:06] And saying like, so what, so I did this thing. She told me that I was really, that that was really fucked up. I got defensive. I need to unpack that with somebody like. Do you, what do you think? And, and going and being willing to go in and, and unlearn and say, Oh, wow, that actually started there. That started when I was seven years old.

[00:19:29] That started, that came from my dad. That's what my dad, dad did to my mom. Oh my God. And then you have this like mind blowing experience of realizing that this isn't even you, this isn't even me, right? I didn't learn, like I, I didn't, I wasn't born and then just suddenly like decided to talk over my wife like an asshole.

[00:19:46] No. I was taught that. That was modeled behavior. That was a patriarchal sister system telling me that my voice means more than hers. And so therefore, because my voice is louder, I have the free space because I'm a man to [00:20:00] exercise that space and to use my voice to silence hers. It doesn't make it right.

[00:20:04] That's what's been reinforced in me since I was a kid. We have to unlearn it. We've got to go to the gym, we've got to put on that weight. We've got to let our trainer tell us that, you know what, we're doing it wrong. Like say, shut up to the part of us that goes like, no, I know how to do it. I know how to do it, man.

[00:20:21] I know how to do it. Like, no, maybe I am doing it wrong. Lift the weight, allow ourselves to grow, be comfortable in the uncomfortable, because we want the muscle to grow and be in terror and have pain so that it can fill with blood and grow, and then. Be like, great, now I know how to do it. Lemme try again tomorrow.

[00:20:39] Jeremy: You mentioned your dad. Uh, I've heard you talk about your dad and, and how he was kind of the sensitive guy and you wanted him to teach you to work with your hands and all that. I'm sure you've heard a million stories from guys who have dad issues. Mine. I related to your story, but, but in the opposite way.

[00:20:54] My dad was an electrician. He worked with his hands, hardworking laborer guy. Not really around much, not emotionally [00:21:00] available. That's most, by 

[00:21:01] Justin: the way, just Jeremy, that's most of, that's most of, I would say the vast majority of stories 

[00:21:05] Jeremy: are like yours. Yeah. It's so interesting though, because he was always trying to get me into his shop to teach me to do the things that you wanted to learn how to do.

[00:21:12] And I was like, this is bullshit. I don't want to, this sucks. I don't want to be out here doing this. And it's funny after the fact, as I've become an adult and been trying to fit into the man box, I'm always like, why can't I 40 years ago, I'd know how to do this. It's so funny how that relationship with our dad influences who we become and and I wonder if it is common Maybe you've heard a lot from people that wish they had listened then because as an adult they figured out that had the lessons They've been ignoring had they followed them.

[00:21:43] They would be closer to what they're trying to accomplish Does that make sense? 

[00:21:47] Justin: Yeah, I think it's, look, I think it's a couple of things because I think that even if you would have listened to your dad, you would have resented him for something else. Of course. Yeah. So it's an, it's a zero sum game. The one thing that I do [00:22:00] feel.

[00:22:00] Is universal and what's helped me on my journey is I have so much compassion for debts, especially our dads or the baby boomer dads and older, the grandparents, those men, and it'd be very easy to be resentful of those men. But if you think about it and you think about what your dad was doing when he was trying to get you in a shot, he was, he was, he was teaching you what he knew.

[00:22:30] And he was trying to prepare you for the world, which is why this is so confusing. And there's a whole group of men who think that this movement of. Undefining masculinity, or, you know, they call it performative wokeness. All the different various things is attacking masculinity and it's the opposite. I'm actually, my, my work is to bring more empathy and compassion for men and to help [00:23:00] understand.

[00:23:00] That we've all been socialized in the same system, men and women, and us men are not only hurting each other, but we're hurting ourselves because the system doesn't benefit us truly. And when I think about your dad and other men, what they were trying to do is protect us from the very same system that hurts us, the system that hurt them.

[00:23:24] They were probably bullied. They, they don't feel like they're enough. They don't feel like they could. Measure up. They don't feel like they provide enough and protect enough. They carry the weight of the world on their shoulders when they go to work every day and work a job that they hate. They're exhausted at the end of the day.

[00:23:38] They're resentful of the fact that the system makes it, makes them have to work so hard that they don't even get to parent during the day. And they're too tired to be fathers before when they get home to be present with their kids. And the only thing they can do is turn on the TV. So I have compassion.

[00:23:54] An empathy for those fathers who so many of us present [00:24:00] because they were doing their best and they didn't have the tools and what they were trying to do was protect us from other men that hurt them and from other boys that will hurt us. And so I don't think there's an answer of like, I wish I would have listened or not listen.

[00:24:17] I think no matter what we would have been like, man, my dad didn't teach me that the grass is always greener when in reality it's our job now as men. To say like, yeah, okay, I need to allow myself to be angry and resentful of my dad. And now I need to forgive him because that's how I'm going to heal. And now I'm going to do better than he did.

[00:24:42] Just like I know he did better than his dad. Those of us that were blessed enough to have a father who did do better or have a father at all. Because a lot of fathers didn't do better. And that's another thing that we need to have empathy and compassion for. Because hurt people hurt people. And a lot of boys have been hurt by their fathers, [00:25:00] especially in that generation.

[00:25:02] My grandfather, I found out that My grandfather never went to one of my dad's sports games growing up, ever. He was an Italian immigrant. He worked at Studebaker, a car company. He ended up becoming a senator in the 1940s, despite being raised very close to the origin of the Ku Klux Klan. And back then, Italians were treated terribly.

[00:25:25] I'm not comparing, by the way. The plight of injustice is there, but he overcame so much. He didn't have the emotional capacity. He never told my dad he loved him. And I didn't know that until I 

[00:25:37] Jeremy: wrote the damn book. And 

[00:25:41] Justin: that stuff and that stuff, we don't find out, we don't ask these questions. We wonder why our dads don't say, I love you.

[00:25:46] We never ask. If it's because their dad never said I love you to them and if we just were to look at the ladder, the family tree of emotional turmoil and abuse that happens to us men because of [00:26:00] masculinity in this patriarchal system that we're in, we'll find that we are byproducts of hurt men who did their best, who didn't belong, who just wanted to make a better world for their Children, who just wanted their Children to have a little bit more than they had.

[00:26:19] And that helps you feel compassion and empathy. 

[00:26:22] Zach: That's, that's pretty powerful. I, uh, You know, the word that I heard in there was enough enough enough and when I picked up your book You know I looked at the I looked at the chapters and was reading and they all end with enough and as I read each one I was like, yep.

[00:26:39] Yep. Yep. Yep I Really want to hear you elaborate a little bit more on on these chapter names and tell us about the book and why you wrote The book 

[00:26:50] Justin: for me again. It was this has really been a discovery. So for one The book is not an attack on men. It's an [00:27:00] invitation to men, if anything, it's a love letter to men.

[00:27:03] And I just, and if men would just open their hearts to this book and read it with the women in their lives, I know that the women in their lives would have so much more compassion and empathy for them. And I wanted to reclaim the phrase that I think has hurt us. To be man enough to man up, right? All of these types of things that we know, whether it's been said to us or not, every boy has had it said to them in some way, and that sticks in your mind.

[00:27:30] And what if we could reframe what that challenge looks like? What if, what if we could say that being man enough is challenging the very system that we benefit from that? We actually don't. What if being man enough is. Standing up to other, what if being man enough is, um, is, is being willing to ask for help?[00:28:00] 

[00:28:01] Being man enough is being willing to say like, I don't know the answer. What do you think? These are not things that we're taught. So for me, the book is me asking questions and using my life as an example. And I just use stories here and there. And I talk about things that are important to me and I talk a little bit about my journey.

[00:28:21] So it's somewhat of a, it's like tiny bits of memoir, but it's only there because I didn't want to write a book that didn't have personal experiences to back up what I'm saying. Because I wrote this book for me. I wrote this book for me at all of the various ages when I needed this book, when I wish I had this book, when I wish somebody would have talked to me and told me that I'm enough as I am.

[00:28:44] And I don't have to prove myself. Somebody would have just told me that, like, it's okay to not know the answer, that I don't have to do it alone, that that true strength is telling somebody that you're hurting. And so every chapter in the book. [00:29:00] And it was really hard to figure this out, but because we actually had to end up combining chapters because the book ended up being way too long and we had to shorten it.

[00:29:08] Every chapter really could be its own book is we took these, uh, these areas that I think every man consciously or subconsciously. feels like he has to measure up in society or against or in comparison to other men. And I wanted to put those in and make and frame the book around these chapters. So it's brave enough.

[00:29:33] It's big enough, right? Body image, you know, our dick size, all of it. It's, you know, smart enough, confident enough, successful enough, um, dad enough, you know, loved enough, right? Um, it's, it's all of these things that we compare ourselves and it's an unrealistic, never ending, uh, climb. And that all it leads us with is, [00:30:00] is, is discontentment.

[00:30:01] We're never going to be happy. Because that's how the system works. That's how masculinity and the patriarchy works is it tells us that we have to, we measure our masculinity in comparison with somebody else. So it's a measured thing, right? So there's, it's not given to us. It's earned. And it can be taken away.

[00:30:24] That doesn't make it. How does that make any sense? So you're telling me that my worth as a man has to be earned Compared and it can also be taken away. Well, what's that going to do? That's going to i'm going to be raised with anxiety and stress and anger and feeling like I'm not enough and that I'm not smart enough.

[00:30:48] And I suck. And that all of like, because I'm always, I'm always seeking validation from the outside world. My masculinity is a constant comparison with external factors that are not in my control. [00:31:00] And as we know, that is a recipe for disaster. So that's, that's kind of the framework of the book. It's really an invitation.

[00:31:10] And as I'm very clear in the book, I don't have the answers. It's not a self help book. I'm not like, okay, here's 10 things you can do now that you've read this chapter. Here's 10 ways that, you know, there's a couple of times where I give some things that have helped me because I didn't want to leave people with nothing.

[00:31:25] But the biggest thing that this book does is it makes you hopefully ask the question why, and go into your heart to find out, well, what makes me tick? Do I experience this? And you know what? Maybe some men won't. There's a lot of men like you that will 

[00:31:44] Jeremy: so much of what you do in the book is what we've been trying to do here.

[00:31:47] And it's very much the same. We're not experts. We're sharing our, our exploration, our journey into all of these different tools and tips and tricks and things that we try to do to improve all aspects of our lives. And it has for us also been very [00:32:00] much a learning process. I'm curious, since this came out, since you've been doing these interviews and hearing from people, Has any of the learning that you experienced writing the book evolved?

[00:32:09] Have you learned more? Is there something where you're like, wow, I hadn't even considered this when I sat down to the, to the computer to start writing this book? 

[00:32:15] Justin: Oh yeah. There's so much more. There's so much more. I mean, one of the things that I've thought a lot more about that I couldn't really write about is, you know, the internal misogyny that women face.

[00:32:26] And cause one of the things that I've been getting a lot of is messages from men saying, Hey dude, I cried in front of my girlfriend, wife, and she was like, she basically told me to man up. Oh my god. And this happens all the time. And that was one of the things that I didn't touch on in the book. But there are a lot of female authors like bell hooks that write about this type of thing, which is, which is an important thing to note.

[00:32:52] And that women and men raised in the very same system, men are told that we have to be a certain way. And women are told [00:33:00] that men have to be a certain way. Right. That's, that's, that's separate from women being told that they have to be a certain way. And so of course, women are going to be raised in a system that subconsciously they have to unlearn.

[00:33:14] The way that they're told a real man is who are they, who they should be attracted to, who they should be drawn to, right? That's why, like the myth of this, like emotionally unavailable alpha male is so destructive because all it's doing is perpetuating like this, this ridiculous idea or notion that men don't want emotional connection when reality we're starved for it, both with other people and with ourselves.

[00:33:46] Jeremy: And we have no idea how to ask for it. And we don't know 

[00:33:49] Justin: how to ask for it because we're told we're not allowed to. I think every, every man should read a will to change bell hooks. It's one, it's probably the book that helped me the most on this journey and challenged me the most, [00:34:00] but we all, and I talked about this in the book is every young boy engages in an act of soul murder, this psychic act of self mutilation where we literally sever ourselves from our feelings, from our hearts, and we don't know how to get it back.

[00:34:21] We spend our lives trying to like. Like build a bridge between our heads and our hearts because like, on one hand, women want us to be more emotionally available than the other hand when we are, we're punished and, and we, you know, we, we, we don't know how we can ask for help, but we're depressed and we don't know what to do because we're comparing ourselves with everybody else and we're trapped, right?

[00:34:43] It's like putting a soul in a robot and saying, figure it out. 

[00:34:50] Jeremy: That's your next movie, by the way. 

[00:34:53] Justin: I mean, there's post apocalyptic movies. I mean, right. Who knows what the future of AI and where we're going. [00:35:00] It's just like, it's like, no, but I've, and it's funny. And, and I had this realization. About a week ago on this journey.

[00:35:06] And I didn't, this isn't in the book. I wish I would've put it in the book, but I was in one of these conversations. And, uh, and for the sake of it, I just was talking about the definitions of what it means to be masculine and feminine. And I said, let's just Google it in real time. Uh, so we just started, I Googled masculine and feminine, and we looked at like, there was like 10 different ideas of, you know, websites of like, here's the five or 10 traits of what it means to be masculine.

[00:35:34] And here's the five or 10. And again, these are like. It's in the dictionary. It's in other places, but it's just general knowledge of if we were to decide what is a masculine trait or a feminine weight trait. This is what it would be. And I was looking at it and I realized, Oh, my God, if I wanted to build a robot.

[00:35:53] If I was Elon Musk, who might be a robot, but if I wanted to build a robot, [00:36:00] I would build the robot with only masculine qualities, it would take direction, it wouldn't ask questions, it would have a purpose, it would be unemotional, it would be resilient, right? That's funny. It would be strong, it would be impenetrable.

[00:36:20] It would, you would build the most bad ass best robot. If you took all the masculine qualities, it would have sense of direction, right? Like, but if you wanted to bring the robot to life, you would give it the feminine quality. There is the problem. And the solution, if we want to become the fullest humans possible, if we want to achieve our potential, if we want true equality, if we want war to end.[00:37:00] 

[00:37:02] We must be willing to embrace the qualities that society deems feminine and not judge each other or please each other for having them and allow women to embody the masculine without us feeling or being emasculated, which isn't a real thing. We are all an amalgamation of both. And the fact that we have not allowed ourselves the Opportunity, the grace, the freedom to be full human beings and experience the gamut of human emotions.

[00:37:40] It's very easy to see why the world is in the position that it's in. 

[00:37:43] Jeremy: I don't want it to be, but that's a perfect place to end. I know you've got another call that you are already a couple minutes late for. This has been amazing. You're all good. Your work is so powerful and really means a lot. And hearing you speak today and in your TED talk and reading your book, I've teared up multiple times.

[00:37:58] So. Oh, just [00:38:00] thank you for, for what you're doing, man. This is really important stuff and, uh, really appreciate your time and we'd love to have you back sometime. 

[00:38:06] Justin: Absolutely guys, Zach and Jeremy, thank you so much for doing this work. It's so important and I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.

[00:38:20] Jeremy: All right. That was Justin Baldoni. You can find out more about him and his book. To the links on our website, the fitness. com. Just look in the show notes for this episode. Hey, while you're there, do subscribe to the show on whatever podcast player you're using, follow us on social media, et cetera. And we have a newsletter there where you can sign up and keep in touch with us.

[00:38:37] And all the things we have going on at the show. Some really important stuff there that I'm so glad we had that conversation because that is a perspective that is not often shared It is I think it's growing. I think there the fact that we do this There are other shows that do something like this the fact that he's writing a book like that This is important stuff.

[00:38:56] And I think one of the big takeaways there is [00:39:00] The idea that that masculinity is it's a perception. It's not It's not real. There's, there's nothing about it. That's real. It's this thing that we assign to men, boys, and then measure and compare to other men. It's, it's this constant game of, am I man enough?

[00:39:21] Uh, is this boy learning to be man enough to be a functioning man in the world? And like you were saying, Zach, I think it's really important to point out that nobody's trying to take anything away. And that was a really important point that you made early in the show is it's about making room for emotional intelligence and feelings and expressing.

[00:39:41] The difficulty and the struggle that you're going through, whatever it might be. Yeah. 

[00:39:46] Zach: I know when I opened myself up to kind of the other side a little bit and those things started building, none of the other, you know, air quotes, manly things really went away. But after a few years, like some of them have [00:40:00] actually started to leave.

[00:40:02] Some of them, not all of them. So like, you know, we've got a something broke in the house. Yeah. Uh, yesterday. And, uh, you know, my, my, my very first thought was like, well, I'll just fix that myself because that's what I do. Right. When nine times out of 10, I usually. Fuck it up worse and then I have to call someone, but like, instead this time I was like, Oh, I will know I'm, you know what, I'm going to ask some people for a recommendation for someone who can come fix that the right way.

[00:40:31] I'm going to channel it the other way. I don't need to fix it. It's not my responsibility to do that. I don't have to 

[00:40:38] Jeremy: that is that has been one of the biggest struggles of my life and my relationship with, you know, masculinity or whatever is the fact that I'm not a handy dude. I can't fix things like you.

[00:40:48] When I, when I try, I tend to fuck them up worse. And there's just this voice in the back of my head that's like, you're not man enough. You're not a good enough person. You're not a provider enough. You can't protect your family when [00:41:00] shit breaks and that's all bullshit because I can call somebody and I can hand them money.

[00:41:06] that I earned through the thing that I do that I'm good at to make them fix the thing that I don't like. I'm still providing, but there's this step that I have to go through in my head to drop that judgment and just be like, you are perfectly good enough. You're exactly who you're supposed to be and it doesn't make you less of a man because you can't fix the toaster.

[00:41:26] It's, it's such a stupid thing, but I have to like talk myself through that every time I can't. Do the thing I watched my dad do. 

[00:41:33] Zach: Yeah. And so I am relatively handy. Like. Usually when I screw things up, it's like, it's the big things, like, cause I try and tackle it myself, but what really gets me is like, you know, when I'm at work, when I'm leading people, right, I, I talk to people all the time about their strengths and, you know, in some cases it's good to work on your weaknesses, right?

[00:41:55] So like for my physical journey, right, for like, you know, working [00:42:00] out and things like that, I need to focus on my weaknesses cause I need balance, but like from a skills perspective. If you have a weakness and I tell people this all the time, like if you have a weakness and you put effort into it, the best you're ever going to get is mediocre, right?

[00:42:16] If you have a strength and you put that same effort into that strength. You'll 10 exit, right? Delegate your weaknesses, focus on your strengths, and you'll be fine. Yet, when something breaks in the house, I'm like, well, I don't know how to do that, but I'm gonna certainly try, and I'm gonna focus on my weakness.

[00:42:34] So, like, I tell, you know, I preach, and I don't listen sometimes.

[00:42:40] Jeremy: Well, I guess the last thing I want to say about this is that, you know, I think you even mentioned at the beginning of the show about uh, women's perception of masculinity, and I think a lot of the people that I've debated about this issue would hear us talking about this and say, you know, you're a couple of woke idiots.

[00:42:58] You know, you're, you're completely off base on [00:43:00] this. I will only present as evidence that they're wrong with the fact that we hear from women that listen to the show that say all of the time, man, I wish my husband was as open as you guys, man. I shared this with my boyfriend because he needs to know that guys can talk like this.

[00:43:18] Women want to want to hear men open up. They want them to be vulnerable. They do also want the tough guys sometimes and it's a it's a tricky act trying to figure out which at which time to be which guy but there has to be room for both. There can't just be the one closed off robot that is there all the time trying to lead and fix and repair and do you also have to feel and you have to share that.

[00:43:42] It happens 

[00:43:42] Zach: so often. So like at work, if there's a woman who is higher up in the ranks and she's just as aggressive as a man, it's abnormal and people go out of their way to make sure that everyone knows that that person is hyper aggressive, right? They're just being a normal level of aggressive. [00:44:00] But on the flip side, right?

[00:44:01] As a man, when you do open yourself up, when you are vulnerable and take on some of the traits that women have long known that are. Valuable, right? It's looked down as a weakness, right? Yeah. When it's just normal. It just, I can't stand that. How, how that, that viewpoint is there, 

[00:44:18] Jeremy: right? And it's again, it's artificial.

[00:44:20] It's this thing that we've created and is perpetuated. And that's where You know, I hope conversations like this one and episodes like this, uh, are, are some early steps in trying to combat that and, and change, I guess the way both men and women are seen in the world. 

[00:44:35] Zach: Right on. I'm going to go crack a beer can on my head.

[00:44:38] Jeremy: All 

[00:44:39] Justin: right, bro. We better wrap this thing up. You gotta hit the gym and get jacked. 

[00:44:44] Jeremy: All right. Well, I think that's enough of, uh, two privileged white guys complaining about their problems. We're going to wrap this episode up. Uh, thank you so much for listening again. If you have not already, please do subscribe at, uh, the fit mess.

[00:44:55] com. All the links to the various players are there. All of our social media links are there and you [00:45:00] can sign up for the newsletter. But that's going to do it. We will be back with a brand new episode at the fit mess. com. See everyone. 

[00:45:08] Justin: We know this podcast is amazing. It doesn't seem to like anything, but we need a legal disclaimer prior to implementing anything discussed in this podcast, it is your responsibility to conduct your own research.

[00:45:32]