How Running Can Help You Overcome Depression, with Dr. J.M. Thompson

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following years of depression, ineffective
medication, and therapy that went nowhere.

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J Thompson feared he was falling into
inescapable darkness.

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He decided that death was his only exit
route from the torture of his mind.

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After surviving a suicide attempt,
Thompson got a sudden urge to run during

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an exercise break at the hospital where he
was admitted.

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In this episode, he shares how that run
led him on a path that literally saved his

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life and is now helping others find their
way out of the darkness.

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This is the Fit Mess, conversations with
world -class experts in the fields of

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mental, physical, and emotional health.

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In this episode...

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What running and other endurance
activities can provide is a very real

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embodied kind of template for knowing that
it's possible, rather than run away from

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difficult experience, to turn towards
difficulty and learn to tolerate it.

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Now here are your hosts, Zach and Jeremy.

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Welcome to the Fit Mess, sponsored by
Athletic Greens.

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Thanks for listening while you're doing
whatever it is you're doing right now.

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I'm Zach.

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He's Jeremy.

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We've been through all kinds of struggles
and ended up stronger because of them.

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And we want to help you do the same.

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If you're sick of your own shit and you're
ready to make a change, you're in the

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right place.

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Today, we're sharing the incredible story
of a man who listened to his intuition and

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it literally saved his life.

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Our guest is Dr.

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J Thompson, author of Running is a Kind of
Dreaming.

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His path to better health started the way
it does for many of us, running.

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Your started that way, right, Zach?

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It did start that way.

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My motivation was slightly different.

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Where I was working, they decided to
sponsor everyone running this 5k race one

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afternoon.

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And all I saw on the email that came out
was you get to leave work early.

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That's all I saw.

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And I was like, I am in, I get to take a
day off.

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I don't have to work that day.

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I didn't even realize what I needed to do.

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And at this point I was.

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still smoking and just in really bad
shape, like close to 300 pounds.

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And I signed up for it and then quickly
realized, shit.

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Now you got to run.

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I got it.

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I got to do this thing.

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And I remember that night I went to the Y
and they had an indoor track and it was, I

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think it was nine laps for a mile because
it was such a short track.

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And I got like halfway around the first
lap and was like, what the fuck did I just

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do?

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But then I, I did the lap.

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I did another lap and I did another lap
and I did another lap.

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And it was just in my head.

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I was like, I got to run this thing.

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I got to run this 5k.

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And in the process I quit smoking.

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And then all of a sudden I was, you know,
I wasn't running like eight minute miles

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at the time, but I could do a mile and
then two and then three.

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And I ended up doing the race.

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And then it was like, like we said on a
couple of episodes ago, it was only six

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months later that I got for Christmas.

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I got the water.

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the water belt belt, the water belt for
runners.

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And it was like, wait a minute.

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I'm a runner now.

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Yeah, this is weird.

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And I actually felt really good.

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Like mentally so many things had shifted
and allowed me to grow in like so many

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other parts of my life because I was
moving my body.

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You're started with running and has now
turned into all of the other things you're

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doing crossfit and all the other thousand
biohacking things we've talked about on

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this show.

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I'm in a similar place where.

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you know, I moved a few months ago and in
doing so started doing a lot of walking.

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And then my body was saying walking is not
enough.

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Why don't you try running?

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And so I started running and I noticed how
how good I felt afterward.

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And then what was interesting is, you
know, I battle depression, we talked about

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that on the show a lot.

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And I would feel it starting to sort of
flare up and become this this thing that

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just needed to move.

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And

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I decided one day to just try and run
through it, just put on some shoes, go

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outside and just try and run, just try and
move that energy.

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And it totally worked.

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I just went for like a 20 minute run, just
burned all of that energy out and felt

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better.

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And I repeated that again and again.

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And after a few weeks, I was noticing that
when I could feel it coming on, that just

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by finding another use for that energy, I
was able to sort of keep it at bay.

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Now it doesn't work every time.

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There are plenty of times when I go and
run and I'm like, well, now I'm exhausted

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and I feel like shit.

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That sounds like most days for me.

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Yeah.

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But now I know I've got in my back pocket
another tool that when I feel it coming

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on, it's at least one way I can sort of
battle back the mental demons that are

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screaming so loudly.

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Yeah.

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It really, you know, I guess it shouldn't
surprise me anymore, but it still does

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surprise me how, you know, on the rare
occasion when I do stop moving,

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for like a week, whether it's an injury or
just something comes up where I don't get

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to the gym or I don't just move my body in
the bare minimum that it needs, how

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quickly that darkness can come back and
just suffocate me.

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And again, I don't know why, but it always
surprises me when I stop moving my body,

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like how quickly the demons come in for
sure.

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What also surprises me,

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Is when I eat like crap and I don't feed
my body the nutrients that it needs, how

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quickly those same demons can come up.

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So I love taking athletic greens every
single day, just to make sure that those

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demons don't attack me.

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I started taking athletic greens because I
really needed to have a supplement that

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tasted great, gave me all the things that
I needed.

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And I didn't want to have to take 10 pills
a day or spend all of my time cooking all

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the meals.

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I try and get my nutrients from food, but
let's face it, we don't.

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get everything we need every day from
food.

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So, athetic greens was a great solution
for me.

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It tastes great, gives me everything I
need for more energy, better gut health,

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optimized immune system.

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It has less than a gram of sugar, and
there's no nasty chemicals or artificial

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anything, and it actually does taste good.

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And for what you get, it's less than $3 a
day.

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And right now is the time to incorporate
better health, and athetic greens is a

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perfect start.

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To make it easy,

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All you have to do is visit athleticgreens
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fit mess to take ownership over your

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health and pick up the ultimate daily
nutritional insurance.

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That link will be on the show notes and
it's plastered all over our website at

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thefitmass .com.

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So we've shared how we've used running or
just moving our bodies in ways to help

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battle

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not only physical fitness challenges, but
mental challenges as well.

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That's why I was excited to read the book,
Running is a Kind of Dreaming.

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It is written by Dr.

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J Thompson.

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In it, he shares just a remarkable story
about his own battle with depression and a

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suicide attempt.

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And I recently got to talk to him about
his story and the moment he heard

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something from inside him telling him to
run before it's too late.

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This is back in February of 2005.

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So after

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in the wake of untreated child trauma and
many years of cyclical depression, which

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really kind of unraveled in my late
twenties, early thirties.

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I became suicidal.

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I attempted suicide.

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I was hospitalized in San Francisco in a,
a lob psychiatric unit.

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One day the staff took myself and my
fellow patients up to the rooftop

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basketball court for some exercise.

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I knew that a few short minutes I was
going to be back down below, essentially

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incarcerated for my own safety.

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When this impulse sees me to move my body
to run.

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And I did, that's what I did.

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I started to sprint back and forth on the
basketball court.

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And after many, many months of being
really horrifically immobilized by very

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severe depression, I'd felt some sort of.

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spark of aliveness in that moment.

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Of course, it was a long path towards
recovery from there, but it did, you know,

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some sort of, it was some sort of glimmer
of light in the midst of what seems sort

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of inescapable darkness at that point.

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So where, let's talk a little bit about
the origin of that darkness.

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Tell me, tell me where the sort of the
root of that depression came from.

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Well, sure.

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So I grew up in a family affected by
severe mental illness.

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So my mother caught with bipolar disorder
and periods of psychosis.

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My father with severe depression that
happened really at the same time in my

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teens, which as you might imagine was
confusing to say the least for a 14 year

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old in England at that time.

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No one talked about mental health or
depression.

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I was really on my own with
incomprehensible experiences.

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also incomprehensible, very difficult
feelings on the inside that I cut with for

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years by essentially trying to ignore
those feelings or self medicating them

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through drugs and alcohol.

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Yeah.

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It turns out that if you try and run away
from, from difficult feelings or traumatic

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memories, you know, that works as they say
it until it doesn't work.

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And at some point I sort of had nowhere
left to run and I was stuck with really

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intolerable feelings.

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Hence the kind of.

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process that wound me up in the hospital
and the recovery process that slowly began

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from there.

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So I'm curious about that recovery process
up until running.

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I understand medication, a bunch of things
were tried to combat it and those didn't

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work so well.

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That was my experience.

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And I want to be clear that psychotherapy,
of course, it can be helpful.

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Psychiatric medication can be helpful.

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I'm a clinical psychologist now.

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I'm a psychotherapist.

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And there's certain kinds of therapy that
have been developed, especially recently

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for

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traumatic experience that really can be
helpful.

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My experience at the time, that was all
those years ago, was that whatever I was

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getting was not really getting to the kind
of emotional core of the experiences I'd

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endured as a child and young person
running.

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I stumbled upon and what that provided,
looking back, the book goes into the

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story, it's a kind of narrative, it's
pretty much a narrative driven book.

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what running provided me was a way of kind
of bypassing the thinking mind and getting

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into my body and accessing psychological
states and emotional states that helped me

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kind of really reorganize myself
emotionally and ultimately come to terms

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with the traumatic experiences that I had
grown up with when I was younger.

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I had something similar.

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My...

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sort of wellness journey, if you will,
started on a bike, I was trying to treat

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some knee issues I had, I got on a bike
and was pedaling just to try and deal with

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my knees.

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And I found that sort of just need to be
in the moment to survive, really drove me

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into meditation, it drove me to a much
deeper association with physical fitness

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and or physical exercise, and emotional
health.

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What is it about running or biking?

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What is it about these sort of endurance
performance, athletics that

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does unlock that in our brains and help us
treat those illnesses.

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Well, I think it's working on a number of
levels.

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So I think the experience of depression,
trauma, anxiety, it's, it has many levels

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to this, but one, one core aspect is it's
quite challenging to stay in the here and

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now the mind tends to either be
preoccupied with feelings or memories from

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something that happened before.

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or thoughts or anticipation is about the,
the something dreadful on the horizon.

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When you're running or biking or swimming
or climbing or dancing or whatever the

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medium is, yoga, meditation, it's a
sensory way of coming into right now.

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So that's one piece.

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Another piece of this, which is important,
I would want listeners, viewers to know is

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the experience of trauma or depression is
of a kind of

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loss of predictability and experience,
right?

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It's a feeling of kind of losing control
of your moods and your kind of sense of

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where you are in the world.

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What, especially experiences like running
provide is a way of, of kind of creating a

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sort of predictability and experience,
right?

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It's very simple on one level, right?

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Left, right, left, right, left.

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On the other hand, at the same time, you
are creating new connections internally.

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within parts of the brain that support
mood and memory in a positive way.

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You're also, it's important to people
coping with depression where the tendency

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can be to isolate and kind of feel
paralyzed.

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You're doing the opposite of that.

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You're getting outside, you're moving
forward.

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And that literal forward movement can end
up being a sort of impetus for forward

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movement in a broader sense.

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Forward movement in your actual life, not
just on the trail or track.

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part of my runs lately, I've noticed
midway through before the sort of runners

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high kicks in or whatever, there is this
message, I guess sense of this is hard,

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and I'm getting through it.

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And just sort of the practice of doing
that, I'm able to then attach to

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depression, that's also hard.

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And if I can get through this, I can get
through that.

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Is there sort of an element of that?

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Or am I making that up?

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Well, I think that what running and other
endurance activities can provide,

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is a very real embodied kind of template
for knowing that it's possible rather than

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run away from difficult experience to turn
towards difficulty and learn to tolerate

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it.

252
00:14:06,118 --> 00:14:09,178
Certainly that would also be the through
line with meditation.

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The point of meditation is to allow what
emerges in consciousness without either

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attaching to it too much.

255
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or wishing it to go away, right?

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Being with experience.

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Certainly, there's a through line that the
one exercise running other forms of

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exercise could provide.

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00:14:28,010 --> 00:14:34,050
And I talk about my experience in the book
is a way of turning towards difficulty and

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knowing that it's survivable.

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In your case, it seems like there was
almost an outside voice or something

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encouraging you to run.

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For other people, maybe it's CrossFit,
lifting heavy things, whatever.

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Does the method of exercise matter?

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Does it matter if you're just lifting
heavy things in the gym versus going for

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longer runs or whatever it is?

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Or does it, is it really just the exertion
and moving that energy?

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Certainly all forms of exercise can be
beneficial in many ways.

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My sense is there is something specific
about kinds of exercise that induce

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something like a flow state.

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So it's not only the aerobic activation
and the endorphins, it's a state of mind,

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hence the title running as a kind of
dreaming where you went to essentially a

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kind of waking dream.

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So there's something about the rhythmic
predictable motion of left, right, left,

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right, and the sense of sort of hypnotic
merger with the activity, but also the

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experience of moving ultimately what can
feel like an almost effortless state.

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in the natural world.

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There is something about that that is
unique.

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So runners will adense by with that,
swimmers, climbers, skiers, snowboarders,

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there's something there that across those
activities of a kind of waking dream state

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that can be kind of profoundly healing, I
think.

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I was going to ask you about that.

283
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Does it matter if I'm on a treadmill or if
I'm on a trail or a road?

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Does it make a difference?

285
00:16:08,302 --> 00:16:09,722
I think it does make a difference.

286
00:16:09,722 --> 00:16:14,182
I have certainly done workouts on
treadmills and of course, from a pure

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00:16:14,182 --> 00:16:16,542
fitness point of view, that can be great.

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You can put it up to six minute mile and
do a good workout.

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And if that's, if that, if your goal is in
that very sort of narrowly circumscribed

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sense of getting fit, so to speak, then
the treadmill is, could be awesome.

291
00:16:31,142 --> 00:16:36,352
If what you're looking at is more
emotional, spiritual, existential.

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I do sense that there is something about
being out in nature in a forest trail.

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00:16:42,998 --> 00:16:48,218
Of course, we all have different levels of
access to green spaces based on where we

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live and how safe that feels to you based
on your kind of social location and so

295
00:16:52,178 --> 00:16:52,818
forth.

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00:16:52,818 --> 00:16:56,998
But to the extent it's possible, if you
could be out in nature and have that

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00:16:56,998 --> 00:17:04,058
experience of moving through a natural
physical environment, there's an actual,

298
00:17:04,058 --> 00:17:04,685
there's an

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00:17:04,685 --> 00:17:09,485
added dimensions about beyond just the
physicality of running itself, I think.

300
00:17:09,485 --> 00:17:13,785
Aside from the sort of healing part of
this journey for you, the pain of being in

301
00:17:13,785 --> 00:17:17,805
a suicidal depressive state, you reveal
that in the book.

302
00:17:17,805 --> 00:17:19,985
How hard was that to put into words?

303
00:17:19,985 --> 00:17:24,225
Because I know that I've been with my wife
for 20 years and I don't know that I have

304
00:17:24,225 --> 00:17:28,635
yet articulated what it means to be in
that state.

305
00:17:28,654 --> 00:17:31,674
How challenging was it to find the words
to put on paper for that?

306
00:17:31,674 --> 00:17:33,154
Well, it does take a while.

307
00:17:33,154 --> 00:17:38,094
This book was around 20 years, ultimately,
in Genesis.

308
00:17:38,094 --> 00:17:44,354
And it's precisely because of the issue
you raised that the experience of the

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00:17:44,354 --> 00:17:51,214
descent into suicidal depression and
emergence from it really does push the

310
00:17:51,214 --> 00:17:56,206
mind to places that are sort of outside of
concepts or language that we have.

311
00:17:56,206 --> 00:18:00,106
And, you know, it took me a really long
time, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

312
00:18:00,106 --> 00:18:05,106
of drafts to find language for an
experience that is sort of really at the

313
00:18:05,106 --> 00:18:07,066
limits of language.

314
00:18:07,106 --> 00:18:12,606
I ultimately did want to do that though,
because my sense is that, of course

315
00:18:12,606 --> 00:18:15,606
there's openness, more openness now around
mental health.

316
00:18:15,606 --> 00:18:21,366
There's still, my sense is a great deal of
silence around, suicidality, suicide

317
00:18:21,366 --> 00:18:24,686
itself in particular, partly because of
stigma.

318
00:18:24,686 --> 00:18:28,146
But I think also because of the issue
race, that it's really hard to know how to

319
00:18:28,146 --> 00:18:30,766
even put that experience into words.

320
00:18:30,766 --> 00:18:35,806
My hope is by doing this for readers,
there'll be a sense in kind of going with

321
00:18:35,806 --> 00:18:40,826
this journey in me of going into the abyss
of depression and out the other side of a

322
00:18:40,826 --> 00:18:46,166
sense, hopefully of some kind of solace or
connection and knowing that if you're

323
00:18:46,166 --> 00:18:49,706
going through something now, you know,
someone who's going through something now,

324
00:18:49,706 --> 00:18:52,046
you know, others have been in this place.

325
00:18:52,046 --> 00:18:53,870
There is in fact a way.

326
00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:59,790
of navigating this sort of hell -like
mental terrain that is, from which there

327
00:18:59,790 --> 00:19:03,710
is a pathway towards a recovery and
wellbeing.

328
00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:08,570
The trauma that you talk about, and I was,
and I'm correct me if I'm wrong.

329
00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:10,540
I understand that you're currently working
with veterans.

330
00:19:10,540 --> 00:19:11,470
You're right.

331
00:19:11,470 --> 00:19:16,470
Trauma is a tricky thing for me because I
grew up with sort of typical garden

332
00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:19,610
variety alcoholism in the family trauma as
a kid.

333
00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:23,182
And, and it, I have pretty serious issues
with depression.

334
00:19:23,182 --> 00:19:25,442
my of my own, just from that.

335
00:19:25,442 --> 00:19:28,742
And so I always feel guilty when I'm
trying to give someone advice about their

336
00:19:28,742 --> 00:19:33,922
trauma, when it's much more severe, when
it's PTSD, some sort of abuse.

337
00:19:33,922 --> 00:19:35,742
How are there levels?

338
00:19:35,742 --> 00:19:40,882
Does it matter the the trauma in terms of
the result of depression?

339
00:19:40,882 --> 00:19:42,052
Yes and no.

340
00:19:42,052 --> 00:19:45,402
I mean, what I would always say to people
who I'm working with in therapy, when

341
00:19:45,402 --> 00:19:50,022
precisely this point is made, some sort of
comparison is, you know, there's a saying

342
00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:52,366
in the AA and 12 step world,

343
00:19:52,366 --> 00:19:54,526
compare and despair, right?

344
00:19:54,526 --> 00:19:59,686
If you, and the analogy I often will
invoke in describing what I mean here is

345
00:19:59,686 --> 00:20:05,166
if you break your leg and that's pretty
painful and you end up in hospital next to

346
00:20:05,166 --> 00:20:07,606
someone who has two broken legs.

347
00:20:07,606 --> 00:20:11,666
If you look across and say, I have no
right to be in pain because look at that

348
00:20:11,666 --> 00:20:12,266
guy.

349
00:20:12,266 --> 00:20:16,266
That will be a sort of, that comparison
wouldn't serve you.

350
00:20:16,266 --> 00:20:19,758
However, if you look across to the person
with two broken legs,

351
00:20:19,758 --> 00:20:22,238
And it's the sort of seed of compassion.

352
00:20:22,238 --> 00:20:27,198
And now like, you know what, suffering is
a sort of universal human frailty and it's

353
00:20:27,198 --> 00:20:29,898
the seed of sort of compassion and
connection.

354
00:20:29,898 --> 00:20:34,238
Then you can look across at others, but I
would always discourage people from saying

355
00:20:34,238 --> 00:20:40,318
that your pain is less significant because
you didn't serve on the front line in Iraq

356
00:20:40,318 --> 00:20:45,198
or whatever, pick your kind of whatever
your idea of the prototypical trauma is,

357
00:20:45,198 --> 00:20:49,134
your experience, your experience and it's
worthy of.

358
00:20:49,134 --> 00:20:54,634
of being cared for and attended to just as
much as anyone else is.

359
00:20:54,914 --> 00:20:58,474
There's a lot of great messages that I
think anyone can pull from your book, but

360
00:20:58,474 --> 00:21:01,954
whether I'm someone battling depression or
mental illness of some sort, or I know

361
00:21:01,954 --> 00:21:05,373
someone who is, what do you hope that
people, when they are done with the book

362
00:21:05,373 --> 00:21:08,114
that they've taken from that experience?

363
00:21:08,254 --> 00:21:11,814
My aim is to install hope, ultimately.

364
00:21:11,814 --> 00:21:16,694
What compelled me to write this is, as you
kind of alluded to, it's not

365
00:21:16,694 --> 00:21:18,286
straightforward to...

366
00:21:18,286 --> 00:21:22,086
talk about these issues was a long time in
the making.

367
00:21:22,086 --> 00:21:29,726
My sense is by giving voice to experiences
that were unspeakable and deeply horrific

368
00:21:29,726 --> 00:21:35,606
as I went through them and recovered from
them, that for the reader embarking on

369
00:21:35,606 --> 00:21:42,146
this journey of following the story as I
evoke it from the inside, there will be a

370
00:21:42,146 --> 00:21:46,118
feeling of hope and solace in knowing that

371
00:21:46,126 --> 00:21:52,986
Even the worst experiences that are
possible, there is some kind of pathway

372
00:21:52,986 --> 00:21:56,806
from those experiences towards wellbeing.

373
00:21:56,806 --> 00:22:04,326
And ultimately, I really do have faith in
the fundamental human capacity to recover

374
00:22:04,326 --> 00:22:06,946
even from our deepest wounds.

375
00:22:06,946 --> 00:22:11,706
And that's really what I want, what my
heart's desire is for folks reading this

376
00:22:11,706 --> 00:22:13,926
book to take away from him.

377
00:22:14,126 --> 00:22:17,306
If someone is hearing this or they've read
your book and they want to start running

378
00:22:17,306 --> 00:22:21,146
and they want to take on some sort of an
endurance thing to battle their mental

379
00:22:21,146 --> 00:22:24,966
illness, how do you start this without
hurting yourself, without biting off more

380
00:22:24,966 --> 00:22:25,986
than you can chew?

381
00:22:25,986 --> 00:22:28,446
What's a simple way to pick up this
practice?

382
00:22:28,446 --> 00:22:31,966
Well, I'd say that even a little bit goes
a long way.

383
00:22:31,966 --> 00:22:40,006
And I would encourage newcomers to running
to think less about duration and more

384
00:22:40,006 --> 00:22:43,342
about consistency, about building.

385
00:22:43,342 --> 00:22:44,922
a habit.

386
00:22:45,002 --> 00:22:49,662
So if you're just starting and you have no
background in this at all, if you, if you

387
00:22:49,662 --> 00:22:57,002
can get out for 20 minutes, three times a
week and really listen to your body and

388
00:22:57,002 --> 00:23:03,502
trust your own judgment and know that the
capacity to get stronger, you know, builds

389
00:23:03,502 --> 00:23:05,482
it's, this is not overnight.

390
00:23:05,482 --> 00:23:10,022
This is months and years of gradually
developing the physical and mental

391
00:23:10,022 --> 00:23:12,846
capacity to go longer and further.

392
00:23:12,846 --> 00:23:17,566
And listen to your body, learn to take
care of yourself, know that you are

393
00:23:17,566 --> 00:23:21,146
ultimately an expert on yourself.

394
00:23:21,146 --> 00:23:27,526
And listen to your body's signals and try
to become a skilled and attentive reader

395
00:23:27,526 --> 00:23:29,406
to what you're hearing.

396
00:23:29,506 --> 00:23:31,206
And how much are you running now?

397
00:23:31,206 --> 00:23:34,786
Because I'm at about the 20 minutes, three
times a week or so.

398
00:23:34,786 --> 00:23:37,186
You're running a lot more than that now.

399
00:23:37,486 --> 00:23:38,094
Well,

400
00:23:38,094 --> 00:23:41,654
You know, I have done these very long
events, including the main experience

401
00:23:41,654 --> 00:23:46,514
described in the book, which is running
205 miles nonstop around Lake Tahoe over

402
00:23:46,514 --> 00:23:47,814
96 hours.

403
00:23:47,814 --> 00:23:50,434
I haven't done that kind of run for a
little while.

404
00:23:50,434 --> 00:23:53,434
It's not been many events over the course
of the pandemic.

405
00:23:53,434 --> 00:23:59,534
A couple of weeks ago, I was back in Tahoe
doing a 30 mile run in the Marins and it

406
00:23:59,534 --> 00:24:00,314
was awesome.

407
00:24:00,314 --> 00:24:01,074
That's incredible.

408
00:24:01,074 --> 00:24:03,774
I hoped one day to reach that point.

409
00:24:03,774 --> 00:24:05,774
And I guess sort of just last point.

410
00:24:05,774 --> 00:24:10,274
as much as you've done this and from as
dark a place you started, how healed are

411
00:24:10,274 --> 00:24:10,454
you?

412
00:24:10,454 --> 00:24:13,694
Have you beaten it or is it still a daily
battle?

413
00:24:14,594 --> 00:24:19,094
No, I mean, in order to have gotten to the
point where I felt like I could write this

414
00:24:19,094 --> 00:24:25,814
book, I had to have focused for quite a
long time on recovery and healing.

415
00:24:25,814 --> 00:24:31,334
So the experiences described in the book
are primarily things I went through as a

416
00:24:31,334 --> 00:24:33,358
teenager and then...

417
00:24:33,358 --> 00:24:38,218
The suicidal crisis I went through was
really 2005 to 2006.

418
00:24:38,218 --> 00:24:44,458
So the subsequent 15 years focused on
sobriety, recovery, therapy, a lot of

419
00:24:44,458 --> 00:24:45,218
running.

420
00:24:45,218 --> 00:24:49,408
I trained, I started training as a
psychologist, a complete training.

421
00:24:49,408 --> 00:24:54,018
And it was only after all of that, that I
sort of allowed myself to look back again

422
00:24:54,018 --> 00:24:59,118
and then think that there would be value
for others in hearing my story and knowing

423
00:24:59,118 --> 00:25:01,134
the recovery is possible.

424
00:25:01,134 --> 00:25:05,434
So of course, you know, there are ups and
downs in life, but I'm very fortunate and

425
00:25:05,434 --> 00:25:11,114
grateful to say now that I've been in long
-term remission from serious depression

426
00:25:11,114 --> 00:25:15,354
for about 13 years now.

427
00:25:15,434 --> 00:25:16,514
That's incredible.

428
00:25:16,514 --> 00:25:20,004
Thank you so much for your time and for
your story and for your advice and wisdom.

429
00:25:20,004 --> 00:25:22,194
Where can we learn more about you in the
book?

430
00:25:22,334 --> 00:25:30,328
So the book website is www
.runningisacountofdreaming .com.

431
00:25:30,382 --> 00:25:34,942
At that website, there's stuff more about
the book, a little bit about me.

432
00:25:34,942 --> 00:25:39,542
There are links to buy the book at the
various retail options.

433
00:25:39,542 --> 00:25:45,662
And there's also a list of resources for
anyone in crisis right now, either

434
00:25:45,662 --> 00:25:50,702
themselves or for, if you'll try to think
about resources for a friend or a loved

435
00:25:50,702 --> 00:25:56,162
one, there's a list of national helplines
with the 1 -800 numbers and websites.

436
00:25:56,162 --> 00:25:59,790
If you need support, those organizations
are there.

437
00:25:59,790 --> 00:26:04,830
to help you if you need them and they're
available 24 seven right now.

438
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:06,170
That was Dr.

439
00:26:06,170 --> 00:26:09,450
J Thompson, author of Running is a Kind of
Dreaming.

440
00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:14,350
You can find all those links in the show
notes for this episode at thefitmass .com.

441
00:26:14,350 --> 00:26:18,510
A lot of great takeaways for you in that
interview, starting with just listening to

442
00:26:18,510 --> 00:26:22,070
your own intuition, listening to that
voice that calls you to action, that calls

443
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:24,930
you to do something and to then actually
do it.

444
00:26:24,930 --> 00:26:26,490
That is the key part of all of this.

445
00:26:26,490 --> 00:26:29,242
Whatever podcast you're listening to, book
you're reading,

446
00:26:29,262 --> 00:26:32,022
The key is to actually take action on
whatever the thing is.

447
00:26:32,022 --> 00:26:37,201
I love the portrayal that he gave there of
how relative pain is.

448
00:26:37,201 --> 00:26:41,302
You can have a broken leg and if the
person next to you has two broken legs,

449
00:26:41,302 --> 00:26:42,812
you can still be in pain.

450
00:26:42,812 --> 00:26:43,712
That's okay.

451
00:26:43,712 --> 00:26:46,042
It's all right to acknowledge it and to
care for it.

452
00:26:46,042 --> 00:26:46,422
Yep.

453
00:26:46,422 --> 00:26:51,118
But the statistical probability of being
in that position is kind of unlikely.

454
00:26:51,118 --> 00:26:54,298
Kind of unlikely, but just as a helpful
way to think of it.

455
00:26:54,298 --> 00:26:55,167
No, I know it's a really good image.

456
00:26:55,167 --> 00:26:59,418
When you're feeling guilty about, my
pain's not as bad as Hank over there.

457
00:26:59,418 --> 00:27:01,178
Well, it's okay.

458
00:27:01,178 --> 00:27:02,418
You can still acknowledge your pain.

459
00:27:02,418 --> 00:27:03,078
It's fine.

460
00:27:03,078 --> 00:27:04,118
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

461
00:27:04,118 --> 00:27:05,948
I do acknowledge my pain every single day.

462
00:27:05,948 --> 00:27:09,778
At the gym, I cut my leg like four times
on one of the exercise bikes because we

463
00:27:09,778 --> 00:27:12,198
had to get on and off, on and off, on and
off.

464
00:27:12,238 --> 00:27:17,138
And afterwards I noticed that I'd cut, I
have four cuts on my legs and I sent a

465
00:27:17,138 --> 00:27:21,006
text to the coach and said, I cut my leg
four times on that.

466
00:27:21,006 --> 00:27:24,006
fucking bike today, but I woke up this
morning.

467
00:27:24,006 --> 00:27:25,266
So it's a great day.

468
00:27:25,266 --> 00:27:27,726
Very nice.

469
00:27:27,726 --> 00:27:32,016
And good for you for taking action,
actually doing something.

470
00:27:32,016 --> 00:27:35,826
And I hope that this story has inspired
you to do something, whether it's going to

471
00:27:35,826 --> 00:27:40,066
a therapist, starting running, whatever it
is, but the inspiration isn't enough.

472
00:27:40,066 --> 00:27:41,206
The story isn't enough.

473
00:27:41,206 --> 00:27:42,266
You have to act.

474
00:27:42,266 --> 00:27:46,846
You have to actually do something in order
to grow and overcome the things that are

475
00:27:46,846 --> 00:27:47,846
holding you back.

476
00:27:48,558 --> 00:27:52,178
And don't let the conversation about
managing your mental health end there.

477
00:27:52,178 --> 00:27:55,838
Join us in our Facebook group where you
and fellow FitMess listeners can find

478
00:27:55,838 --> 00:27:59,178
support, take part in monthly challenges,
and create accountability to reach your

479
00:27:59,178 --> 00:27:59,858
goals.

480
00:27:59,858 --> 00:28:03,458
That link is also at our website,
thefitmess .com, where we will be back

481
00:28:03,458 --> 00:28:05,218
next week with a brand new episode.

482
00:28:05,218 --> 00:28:06,458
Thanks for listening.

483
00:28:06,458 --> 00:28:07,538
See you, everyone.

484
00:28:36,942 --> 00:28:42,282
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