How to Break Free from Phone Addiction

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And if you're like most people, the answer is too much.

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we're discussing digital addiction with Jenny Ketchum Crooks.

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worker, anxiety specialist, and author of Look

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30 -day path to digital minimalism and real -life maximalism.

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explore how our digital habits impact mental health and relationships and learn practical
strategies to break free from the endless scroll.

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Jenny will share insights from her 30 -day challenge

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tips for creating a healthier relationship with technology.

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So if you're struggling with screen time, this episode is packed with valuable insights.

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Let's dive in.

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I'll start with a confession.

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I'm sure I have an unhealthy relationship with my phone.

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I know you at least at one point did have an unhealthy relationship with your phone.

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Maybe you still do.

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Maybe it's just not as bad.

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Talk to me about your relationship with your phone and how you got into all this.

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I mean, look, like I am a human.

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I have a relationship with my phone and the health of that relationship really waxes and
wanes given any particular day.

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I also have a two year old and so the more active that she is, the more unhealthy my phone
relationship seems to be.

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It's just such a nice place to avoid my life.

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It's a wonderful escape and it's also a wonderful place to feel like I'm a really good
parent as I like buy a bunch of shit I don't need on Target.

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And so...

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Yeah, so current phone use is probably somewhere around two hours a day if we're just
looking for the objective metrics.

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Yeah, don't know whether that's healthy or not.

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I'd have to do the lookup challenge again, right?

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And so how did we get here?

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Just real quick, I missed my daughter's first steps because I was looking up content about
Snooki from Jersey Shore.

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Because obviously it was important, and that's what I had to attend to in that moment.

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So.

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So but as a therapist at the at the time, were you a therapist when when that happened?

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Yeah, so I was a therapist at the time.

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And I realized that I had missed this really important moment.

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And other people were there that saw it, which was even more shame showed up.

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Like, my god, all these people saw me missing this moment because I'm looking up shit
about Snooki.

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So I was a therapist at the time.

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And I thought, there's got to be someone in the field, some clinical person who has
designed some clinical strategy.

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I'm very solutions oriented.

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There has to be a problem solved for this.

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Somebody has to tell me what to do.

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And it can't be as simple as put down your phone, because that just doesn't fucking work.

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Just do it.

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Yeah, just go.

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So

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I want something that is evidence -based and like grounded in the scientific theories that
I'm familiar with and that I use with my clients.

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Couldn't find it and thought, well, maybe I'll just make something.

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And so I want to get into what the something is, but talk to me about the results.

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Like, let's kind of give the before and after picture of this.

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Once you've implemented it, how has it helped you?

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How has it helped your clients?

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Yeah, so implementing this helped me personally because I have this huge improvement in my
awareness around my phone use behaviors, which is actually the first step towards changing

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behavior.

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Right?

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Like you have to be aware that you're doing the thing and also aware of what's driving you
into that thing.

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Right?

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Like, are you going towards something that you really care about or are you moving away
from something that is yucky?

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Right, like an ick.

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And so once you have that sort of insight, it allows you to better tune your behavior.

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Right.

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So I realize when I'm in my phone putting, like I mentioned, putting stuff in my target,
in my target card, that's usually because I feel like I have fucked up as a parent.

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Like that is my quick go to.

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Right.

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It's such an easy one.

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I'm like, I'm just going to buy her so many leggings that she will never be able to say
that I was a shitty parent.

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right.

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I'm gonna cry.

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So many frozen teethers that this two -year -old never loses her cactus again.

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I'll give you credit because at least you're using that time to do something for your kid.

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I typically will just dive into doom scrolling or whatever turns my brain off and makes me
forget the pain for five minutes or, you know, an hour and a half, whatever amount of time

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happens to pass.

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no different though.

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It is no different, right?

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Because I don't actually buy them.

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I just, I load up the cart and I'm like, whoa, that was close.

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I was almost, and then I walk away from the cart.

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Because I'm like, my God, Jenny, like we don't, we have a lot of cactus teathers.

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Like we have a lot of cactus coolers in this house, right?

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And they're just under chairs and they're like in places, right?

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Like I don't, I know she has enough leggings.

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yeah, of course.

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right?

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And I do the inventory, right?

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But it's such a mindless automatic habit just to go in and Pottery Barn Kids is the same
thing.

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I have a lot of furniture in there, which they have furniture.

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Like we're not sleeping on mattresses in the floor in my house, right?

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Like I don't need any, I don't need any more storage.

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I don't need any more beds, right?

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But like things just get in like maybe.

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one more melamine Grinch plate will make me a good parent, you know?

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It's like, no, we're going to let that go, right?

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So I don't think that the behavior, topographically, it looks different.

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But functionally, it's doing the same thing.

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It's avoidance, right?

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It's me getting away from some thing that I don't want to feel right now in this moment in
my body.

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It's funny, while I was preparing to talk to you today, I was thinking about my use of it
in that way and using it as an escape and how basically I've done this my entire life, but

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you know, there used to not be phones.

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That wasn't really a thing.

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So it used to be TV and it used to be video games.

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And now, you know, and sometimes it's food.

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And for a long time, it was, you know, however many beers it took to make the pain go
away.

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But now it is very much that same behavior shifts to the phone.

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Is that pretty common?

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Is it just sort of an addictive thing that we have?

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Or is there something unique about the phone that makes us more drawn to it for an escape
mechanism?

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Yeah, it's a great question.

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And I think you linking that behavior as the undercurrent in all of those different
situations, all of those different contexts, it's so insightful.

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It is 100 % the same motivation.

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We're trying to get away from this thing that's uncomfortable.

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The phone specifically is set up like a slot machine.

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And so for those of us who have addictive personalities or who have human brains that are
prone to

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biases and cognitive slips where we get in to open an email, but suddenly we're on
Instagram, like looking at reels, right?

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Like it's going to pull us in for a longer amount of time than we actually want to be in,
right?

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So you don't necessarily have to have an addictive personality in order to get sucked into
it.

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It is designed to suck you in.

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I mean, think about like what's on your home screen right now.

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My home screen right now, you know, it's the stock Apple screen.

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no, actually on my phone.

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It's a picture of Darth Vader and my complicated relationship with both sides of Anakin
Skywalker and Darth Vader.

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Literally my favorite answer that has ever been populated.

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Right?

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I love it.

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I love it.

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What do you feel when you look at that?

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I feel the pull between the light and the dark.

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I mean, I've fought depression my entire life.

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I am right now in the longest stretch without it that I've ever experienced in my entire
life.

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And I have an awareness to some stuff I'm dealing with right now, honestly, that normally
I think I would have hung the depression hat on and said, I'm depressed again.

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Here it is.

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But because I've been so healthy for so long, I can look at it and go, no.

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A really terrible thing just happened.

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You're really sad and disappointed and angry and upset about and there's a lot of
overwhelm which leads to that just turn off mode.

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So like I'm just kind of numb a lot.

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And if I'm not that I'm sad and disappointed.

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And so the so I relate a lot to you know what we've if you're a Star Wars nerd forgive me
if you're not but like the Anakin Skywalker we see in the Clone Wars is the hero.

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He's the good guy.

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He's always fighting the bad guys and winning.

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The one we see later is the villain who gave into the darkness.

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I was that guy for a long time and I'm trying to be the young hero.

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Only now I'm old and so it's harder.

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So I'm kind of doing it backwards.

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But so that's that's it just brings me to my awareness of that dynamic within myself.

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So beautiful.

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And there's so much in there that I'm like, God, I really like, I wanna like eat that with
you, right?

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I just love it.

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You know, one, just focus on the thing that's right in front of you, Jenny.

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It feels good to look at your phone screen.

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It's a touch point, right?

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It's like, like right now I have, what do I have?

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I have, this is my daughter.

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Let's see.

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That's one of them.

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And I could look at that all day.

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There's another one, there's another one, there's another.

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And then I would just sit here and tap, like tap, tap.

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there's both of them.

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There's the family.

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All right, aren't they beautiful?

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We set up our screens with these beautiful appetitive things, right?

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Because it's designed to be that.

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Even the stock footage, that Apple globe.

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It's so stunning, right?

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Like it's so visually appetitive.

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Give me more, right?

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And so then we come back to it.

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We come back to it because we want another bite.

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We want more berries.

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Evolutionarily, we are designed to go out and get more berries because they're delicious,
right?

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And they're delicious so that we go get more of them, right?

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It's this sort of like beautiful relationship.

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And if we don't know that that's pulling us in, we're way more likely to just sort of like
do the mindless tap and then end up someplace where.

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We don't necessarily want to be.

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I do want to touch really quick on this depression thing.

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If you're up to it.

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So depression is a relapsing disorder, right?

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It comes up in our life over and over again.

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I think there's data that says that after we have our first depressive episode, we're 50 %
more likely to have a second.

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After you have a second episode, you are like.

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90, 80 or 90 % more likely to have a third.

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And then after the third, it's like, you're fucked.

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Like this is going, you live there, this is it, this is, you know.

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And I think what you said about recognizing that there's a thing that happened, right?

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And it is an event with sadness and with some thoughts and with these sort of like old
reminders of this person that you used to be, right?

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your ability to see that out here instead of like have it be like right in front of your
face, right?

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To like see the world through this, my God, this is the event that happened, right?

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Like this is the whole world, right?

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Like what I see you doing is going like, yeah, like this event happened and fuck, it
really fucking hurt.

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It really hurt.

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That is such a skillful way to move through your life, right?

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And.

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It is one of the reasons, like, these glasses are so sticky, right?

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And so just what you're doing with this really challenging event is the same with the
phone, right?

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Like once you have that awareness, like, when I feel sad, also thoughts about what a piece
of shit I am, how hard my life is, how everything is coming to an end, how nothing really

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matters, that also just sort of comes part and parcel with depression.

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It's the depression on it's an unhappy package.

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It's an unhappy meal, right?

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And like, you can't get the unhappy meal without the like, angry cognitive french fries
that like hate yourself.

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And without the very sad, sad apples, right?

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Like it all comes packaged together.

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And so I just, I want to applaud how you are like witnessing and receiving this.

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event in your life and like just allowing it to be, don't have to fight against it.

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And it's just such a skillful way to move through difficult times.

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It's interesting.

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It's come after a lot of implementing different tools and strategies to land here.

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But one of them was I spent nine months in a pretty intensive program, not nine full
months, but nine Saturdays over nine months in the pretty intensive program.

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Kind of inadvertently eradicating the negative voices from my head.

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Like I literally don't the soundtrack used to be you suck.

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You're not good enough successes for other people.

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You know, happiness is for other people.

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You're supposed to live alone in the dark and you know, you have no value to offer the
world.

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That was the soundtrack all day, every day.

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It's all it's all I knew.

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It's all I knew.

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And so my interactions with other people were very much like, I hope they don't see this.

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I hope they don't see this.

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I hope they don't see this.

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And any word that came out, I don't even know what it was because it was not what I was
thinking.

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But I mean, I specifically remember the last time I thought to myself, you idiot and
literally caught in the middle of it.

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Like, no, you just were rushed and now you're in this bad spot because you made a mistake
in a rushed panic out the door.

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And like literally since then, the voice is gone.

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So it's allowed this sort of space to be able to look at things and apply what we talk
about on this show a lot.

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The idea of just being curious about why you do the things you do.

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When you go to the pantry because you know something tasty in there sounds good.

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Are you really hungry or are you avoiding something?

222
00:14:22,938 --> 00:14:23,498
Are you sad?

223
00:14:23,498 --> 00:14:24,518
Are you upset or what?

224
00:14:24,518 --> 00:14:27,428
Like if you can just be curious about why do I feel?

225
00:14:27,428 --> 00:14:28,398
Why am I doing like that?

226
00:14:28,398 --> 00:14:34,898
Curiosity has just been such an empower such a powerful tool for for me and for Zach, my
co host to.

227
00:14:34,958 --> 00:14:39,518
To sort of undo a lot of the stuff that we learned as a kid as coping mechanisms.

228
00:14:39,586 --> 00:14:48,206
And this is the first time that I think in my life that I've been able to look at the
feelings that feel like this and not just go, it's depression, and just go, wait, no, it's

229
00:14:48,206 --> 00:14:49,546
something else.

230
00:14:50,154 --> 00:14:56,264
Yeah, what a beautiful gift to get to not just be free of that voice.

231
00:14:56,264 --> 00:14:59,034
Because it sounds like that thought is still inside you, right?

232
00:14:59,034 --> 00:15:02,924
It's just sort of like this errant thought that bubbled up that was like, you idiot,
right?

233
00:15:02,924 --> 00:15:08,664
It sounds like you responded to it very differently than you normally do.

234
00:15:08,664 --> 00:15:12,004
You didn't put the glasses on and be like, this is now the world.

235
00:15:12,004 --> 00:15:13,034
I'm the idiot.

236
00:15:13,034 --> 00:15:15,074
This is colored by that idiot lens.

237
00:15:15,074 --> 00:15:17,254
You sort of like, you're like, yeah.

238
00:15:17,254 --> 00:15:18,922
No, we don't necessarily buy.

239
00:15:18,922 --> 00:15:21,182
that narrative anymore.

240
00:15:21,182 --> 00:15:23,722
This is just a really hard thing.

241
00:15:23,722 --> 00:15:26,162
And it sounds like you gave yourself a lot of grace.

242
00:15:26,162 --> 00:15:38,782
And being able to respond kindly to ourselves in moments of suffering, self -compassion is
a critical component of our mental health.

243
00:15:38,782 --> 00:15:45,862
And when we can't respond with that sort of kindness in the present moment, we are just,
hello, depression.

244
00:15:45,862 --> 00:15:46,762
Come on in.

245
00:15:46,762 --> 00:15:47,702
Hello, anxiety.

246
00:15:47,702 --> 00:15:48,746
Come on in.

247
00:15:48,746 --> 00:15:58,225
I am prone to perfectionism in really functional ways, but also in really dysfunctional
ways, right?

248
00:15:58,225 --> 00:16:07,456
If I can just make every part of my life amazing and perfect and be the perfect parent and
the perfect spouse and the perfect wife and still a total sex icon, but don't be too sexy,

249
00:16:07,456 --> 00:16:07,686
right?

250
00:16:07,686 --> 00:16:09,926
Because you're a fucking therapist, you know?

251
00:16:10,346 --> 00:16:13,766
Kids, all Goldilocks all the time, right?

252
00:16:14,406 --> 00:16:17,538
It gets really hard to exist.

253
00:16:17,538 --> 00:16:18,978
Yeah.

254
00:16:19,818 --> 00:16:20,762
Yeah.

255
00:16:20,762 --> 00:16:32,122
I can see those rules and be like, man, that's a really tight, tight rope to try and walk
across a big grand canyon.

256
00:16:32,122 --> 00:16:37,282
Maybe we could just, I don't know, take a break a little bit.

257
00:16:37,282 --> 00:16:42,978
Maybe you can just, I don't know, be a mediocre parent today.

258
00:16:42,978 --> 00:16:43,786
Right.

259
00:16:43,786 --> 00:16:47,366
Just keep them alive, you know, like, let's just let's keep them alive today.

260
00:16:47,366 --> 00:16:52,014
And that sort of kindness is just transformative for us.

261
00:16:52,014 --> 00:17:02,414
yeah, like the comfort of that space like that I was oddly more comfortable in in the pain
and the darkness than you know, then so this is all still relatively new to me.

262
00:17:02,414 --> 00:17:04,894
But we're talking about phones and your book and stuff.

263
00:17:04,894 --> 00:17:08,414
So I want to try and get back to that's what we're doing here.

264
00:17:08,414 --> 00:17:19,938
So I think we I hope that that sort of tangent can sort of highlight the escape that we
all do, right, whether it is anxiety, depression.

265
00:17:19,938 --> 00:17:25,318
bad day, like whatever, we all use the device for that thing to some degree, I would
imagine.

266
00:17:25,318 --> 00:17:30,298
Except for the, except for like the four healthy people in the world that can somehow like
put it down appropriately.

267
00:17:31,078 --> 00:17:31,658
That right?

268
00:17:31,658 --> 00:17:33,278
That's what I say.

269
00:17:33,290 --> 00:17:35,130
That's what I say.

270
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:38,870
I'm sorry, don't really fuck you, please mind the...

271
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:42,490
They'll never be my client, fuck them.

272
00:17:44,066 --> 00:17:45,826
Alright, you've come up with a formula.

273
00:17:45,826 --> 00:17:47,446
What's the form of the curriculum?

274
00:17:47,446 --> 00:17:48,376
What is the thing?

275
00:17:48,376 --> 00:17:50,356
What do we call it in professional terms?

276
00:17:50,356 --> 00:17:52,254
So I can sound like I know what I'm saying.

277
00:17:52,334 --> 00:17:54,394
gosh, what is the formula?

278
00:17:54,394 --> 00:17:59,874
So the formula for like, for the book, you mean?

279
00:17:59,874 --> 00:18:03,754
for a relatively healthy relationship with my phone.

280
00:18:03,754 --> 00:18:05,874
Mmm, yeah.

281
00:18:06,714 --> 00:18:08,894
Intentional, right?

282
00:18:08,894 --> 00:18:10,134
Here's the recipe.

283
00:18:10,134 --> 00:18:14,114
You want to be mindful when you're using it, right?

284
00:18:14,114 --> 00:18:18,944
So active, open, aware, non -judgmental, right?

285
00:18:18,944 --> 00:18:20,564
You want to be intentional.

286
00:18:20,564 --> 00:18:23,874
You're choosing how you use your phone.

287
00:18:24,194 --> 00:18:29,866
And you also, I mean, I think if you do those two things, if you're mindful and you're
intentional about it, then...

288
00:18:29,866 --> 00:18:34,018
a lot of the ways in which the phone sucks you in are going to get short -circuited.

289
00:18:34,018 --> 00:18:39,598
Yeah, so on the intention thing, there's a phrase that I hear everyone use.

290
00:18:40,118 --> 00:18:42,010
I just need to.

291
00:18:42,402 --> 00:18:43,998
it's compelling, isn't it?

292
00:18:43,998 --> 00:18:45,508
just need to text this person.

293
00:18:45,508 --> 00:18:46,768
I just need to post this.

294
00:18:46,768 --> 00:18:48,688
I just need to put this on Snapchat.

295
00:18:48,688 --> 00:18:50,318
I just need to update my face.

296
00:18:50,318 --> 00:18:51,958
I just need to.

297
00:18:51,958 --> 00:18:59,198
We have convinced ourselves that whatever crap we need to put out into the world for four
people to read needs to happen right now.

298
00:18:59,198 --> 00:19:03,008
So with intention, I think people would say, but I need it for work.

299
00:19:03,008 --> 00:19:05,428
I need to post the latest podcast clip that I have.

300
00:19:05,428 --> 00:19:08,318
I need to send this Slack message.

301
00:19:08,498 --> 00:19:13,218
I mean, unless you're like a doctor or in charge of some sort of a rocket launch or
something,

302
00:19:13,218 --> 00:19:15,458
You probably don't need to do it right now.

303
00:19:15,458 --> 00:19:19,866
So do you see that a lot with your clients where it's like, but I just need to.

304
00:19:19,882 --> 00:19:23,782
Yeah, this sense of urgency.

305
00:19:23,841 --> 00:19:26,782
And the phone really lends itself to that.

306
00:19:26,782 --> 00:19:33,262
And the structures that we've created both in the phone and in our interpersonal
relationships reinforce that.

307
00:19:33,262 --> 00:19:34,622
Like the read receipt.

308
00:19:34,622 --> 00:19:37,922
Somebody can see the second that I read it.

309
00:19:37,922 --> 00:19:40,502
Like, god, yeah, we're turning that off.

310
00:19:40,742 --> 00:19:45,232
I think that phrase, I need to.

311
00:19:45,232 --> 00:19:49,422
It's such compelling content in our heads.

312
00:19:49,674 --> 00:19:51,394
I call my mind Brenda.

313
00:19:51,394 --> 00:19:54,074
She's a sort of unhelpful secretary.

314
00:19:54,074 --> 00:20:02,074
She does her best, but she often misfiles things or doesn't file them at all and just
stands in my head and waves them at me.

315
00:20:02,554 --> 00:20:07,594
And she is fairly certain that I need to do a lot of shit.

316
00:20:08,510 --> 00:20:09,400
think you should fire her.

317
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,494
I think you could find somebody better.

318
00:20:11,494 --> 00:20:14,944
luck, I can't, she's it, right?

319
00:20:14,944 --> 00:20:18,074
Like she's in there, I can't get her.

320
00:20:18,234 --> 00:20:23,974
She's got tenure, I used to drink a lot of Jack Daniels to try and quiet her, right?

321
00:20:23,974 --> 00:20:29,194
But then I would do things like, well no, I do need one more line of cocaine, that'll
definitely help, right?

322
00:20:29,414 --> 00:20:40,362
Like it's the same, that same, like, I need, like, if there's this sense of urgency that
you're feeling about using your phone,

323
00:20:40,362 --> 00:20:42,563
See if you can be curious about that.

324
00:20:42,563 --> 00:20:47,333
I actually, in the book, have I called it a Quizlet.

325
00:20:47,333 --> 00:20:50,383
I was thinking of a little pink pig with a curly tail.

326
00:20:50,383 --> 00:20:52,602
It's totally not a clinical thing.

327
00:20:52,602 --> 00:21:02,371
But the Quizlet helps you determine whether you are on call, which is what you're talking
about specifically with physicians.

328
00:21:02,371 --> 00:21:05,631
Some of I work with a lot of people in tech who are on call, right?

329
00:21:05,631 --> 00:21:11,171
And if something breaks, then the expectation is literally that they deal with it that
second.

330
00:21:11,751 --> 00:21:17,911
So it helps you determine if you're on call, if your smartphone dependent, which isn't
talking.

331
00:21:17,911 --> 00:21:24,971
Dependence and abuse in the chemical world are very different than dependence and abuse in
the smartphone world.

332
00:21:24,971 --> 00:21:30,973
Dependence in the smartphone world is like, is this your only access to internet?

333
00:21:30,979 --> 00:21:33,999
Is this your only access to a phone?

334
00:21:33,999 --> 00:21:37,819
These very utilitarian devices.

335
00:21:38,479 --> 00:21:41,459
And then addiction, actual addiction.

336
00:21:41,459 --> 00:21:54,139
And if you have this sense of urgency about responding, that's worth being curious about,
because that leans more into the addiction side of the world.

337
00:21:54,139 --> 00:21:57,319
It also might mean that you're really socially anxious.

338
00:21:57,319 --> 00:22:00,163
What are they going to think of me if I don't respond in that act?

339
00:22:00,163 --> 00:22:06,143
precise moment, this really heavy fear of judgment or of letting people down.

340
00:22:06,143 --> 00:22:13,323
Maybe there's some depression wrapped into that, those thoughts that I'm going to let down
my friends, my family, maybe that comes up.

341
00:22:14,443 --> 00:22:29,207
So yeah, I think if you feel really pulled and you have that thought, like I need to do
this right now, that's worth seeing and noticing and being curious about.

342
00:22:29,283 --> 00:22:31,523
and maybe even experimenting with, right?

343
00:22:31,523 --> 00:22:35,143
Like what happens if you don't?

344
00:22:35,363 --> 00:22:36,383
What if you don't?

345
00:22:36,383 --> 00:22:37,483
Yeah.

346
00:22:37,483 --> 00:22:40,013
I love that tactic for so many.

347
00:22:40,013 --> 00:22:41,913
What if I just stopped doing this thing?

348
00:22:41,913 --> 00:22:44,423
What would like the world's depending on me doing this?

349
00:22:44,423 --> 00:22:46,213
What if right now you don't?

350
00:22:46,213 --> 00:22:47,083
Let's just see what happens.

351
00:22:47,083 --> 00:22:48,443
Wouldn't that be weird?

352
00:22:48,523 --> 00:22:52,463
So clearly plenty of adults have these problems.

353
00:22:52,463 --> 00:22:55,013
My daughter has had a phone for a couple of months.

354
00:22:55,013 --> 00:22:57,223
We had a situation where she could have used it for good.

355
00:22:57,223 --> 00:22:58,903
Instead, she used it for evil.

356
00:22:58,903 --> 00:23:00,803
How?

357
00:23:01,475 --> 00:23:03,415
I love her already.

358
00:23:04,735 --> 00:23:05,947
Yes.

359
00:23:06,023 --> 00:23:12,753
So, first of all, 13 a little early, but for her, it's been a huge game changer in terms
of social connection.

360
00:23:12,753 --> 00:23:15,683
She's been able to actually make friends in real life through the device.

361
00:23:15,683 --> 00:23:23,163
So I love social media and phones for using them as a tool to connect in real life.

362
00:23:23,403 --> 00:23:29,883
Other than that, they kind of don't really serve a lot of good from from my point of view.

363
00:23:29,883 --> 00:23:31,803
So how do we teach our kids?

364
00:23:31,803 --> 00:23:38,915
to find that line between using it as a tool and using it as an addictive pacifier.

365
00:23:38,915 --> 00:23:40,255
Yeah, yeah.

366
00:23:41,215 --> 00:23:43,135
One, we have to model it.

367
00:23:43,135 --> 00:23:47,555
We have to model the behavior because they're learning how to use it from us.

368
00:23:47,555 --> 00:23:47,875
Right?

369
00:23:47,875 --> 00:23:49,375
Like my two -year -old.

370
00:23:49,375 --> 00:23:51,095
And they can't see what we're doing in there.

371
00:23:51,095 --> 00:23:52,495
So it's tricky.

372
00:23:52,495 --> 00:23:53,255
Right?

373
00:23:53,255 --> 00:23:57,055
But my two -year -old has already identified that my smartphone is a very important thing
to me.

374
00:23:57,055 --> 00:24:00,855
So if I don't have it in my hands, she will seek it out.

375
00:24:00,855 --> 00:24:06,095
And she will bring it to me, which I'm like, fuck, Jenny.

376
00:24:06,095 --> 00:24:06,971
Like, fuck.

377
00:24:11,235 --> 00:24:11,955
Yep.

378
00:24:12,715 --> 00:24:13,407
Mm hmm.

379
00:24:13,407 --> 00:24:15,147
doing the best that you can, you know?

380
00:24:15,147 --> 00:24:22,657
And I think if we can model the kind of relationship that we want our kids to have with
it, then they start to learn.

381
00:24:22,657 --> 00:24:30,817
In the same way that we model like financial health and like how to spend money in a way
that like aligns with our family values.

382
00:24:30,817 --> 00:24:33,697
In the same way that we model how to exercise.

383
00:24:33,697 --> 00:24:35,715
In the same way that we model.

384
00:24:35,715 --> 00:24:40,175
how to teach or how to treat our partners, right?

385
00:24:40,175 --> 00:24:46,935
And so with kids, I think you can give yourself a little bit of grace.

386
00:24:47,195 --> 00:24:52,725
There was a study out by Global Minds Project that shows.

387
00:24:52,725 --> 00:25:00,855
So we have now officially the first group of adults who've had access to smartphones
through the entirety of their lives, right?

388
00:25:00,855 --> 00:25:02,965
I know, right?

389
00:25:02,965 --> 00:25:05,229
Like, it's wild.

390
00:25:05,539 --> 00:25:14,919
And so what the data shows is that the younger your kid is when you give them a
smartphone, the more mental health issues that they have as an adult.

391
00:25:14,919 --> 00:25:22,159
And one of the really alarming things was they have higher thoughts of suicidal ideation,
higher incidence of body dysmorphia.

392
00:25:22,159 --> 00:25:24,929
Men are more prone to aggression, right?

393
00:25:24,929 --> 00:25:32,998
And so the study actually tracked kids getting smartphones as young as six years old,
which...

394
00:25:33,443 --> 00:25:38,273
is just to say, Jeremy, like 13, you're doing fucking great, brother.

395
00:25:38,273 --> 00:25:41,299
Like, you did good, you held off a long time.

396
00:25:41,299 --> 00:25:42,999
had to fight and fight and fight.

397
00:25:42,999 --> 00:25:44,109
We wanted to do 14.

398
00:25:44,109 --> 00:25:48,759
We wanted to do high school, but there's a lot of stuff at play that made us cave.

399
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:52,163
And for the most part, it was going well until recently.

400
00:25:52,163 --> 00:25:53,691
Well, I mean like...

401
00:25:55,491 --> 00:25:57,631
It's a learning opportunity.

402
00:25:58,291 --> 00:26:05,631
I don't think that there is a human in this world who has managed their finances perfectly
from the get -go.

403
00:26:05,631 --> 00:26:12,811
And our jobs as parents are to be their little prefrontal cortex, because their little
prefrontal cortex is just mush and isn't developed yet.

404
00:26:12,811 --> 00:26:22,811
And so what a brilliant opportunity for you now as a parent to get to show up in her life
and be like, yeah, you kind of shit the bed with this.

405
00:26:23,747 --> 00:26:25,911
think those are the exact words I used.

406
00:26:25,911 --> 00:26:27,581
you really shit the bed with this.

407
00:26:27,581 --> 00:26:31,071
Like, we gave you this really nice thing and you kind of shit the bed with it.

408
00:26:31,071 --> 00:26:36,571
And like, and to get to model how to be really kind and firm, right?

409
00:26:36,571 --> 00:26:41,811
Like that thing that like, I don't think I necessarily got that as a kid.

410
00:26:41,850 --> 00:26:44,741
And so, I mean, a lot of my Perfections of Them shows up there, right?

411
00:26:44,741 --> 00:26:46,931
Where it's like, get it right, never make a mistake.

412
00:26:46,931 --> 00:26:51,841
It's like, Simmer, like Brenda, like, please just like, just, I got it, babe.

413
00:26:51,841 --> 00:26:53,027
Like, we're gonna.

414
00:26:53,027 --> 00:26:54,667
We're just going to fuck up a little bit.

415
00:26:54,667 --> 00:26:55,737
We might shit the bed.

416
00:26:55,737 --> 00:26:57,197
Like, we've got plastic sheets.

417
00:26:57,197 --> 00:26:57,947
It's OK.

418
00:26:57,947 --> 00:27:01,167
Like, we can come back from this.

419
00:27:01,167 --> 00:27:02,207
You know?

420
00:27:02,207 --> 00:27:06,127
And so for like your kiddo, like, great, she shit the bed.

421
00:27:06,127 --> 00:27:10,613
How are we going to move forward together and prevent bedshitting?

422
00:27:13,564 --> 00:27:17,224
So let's talk a little bit about sort of the the simple one two threes.

423
00:27:17,224 --> 00:27:21,034
I have a problem I can't put my phone down for whatever reason either either.

424
00:27:21,034 --> 00:27:28,972
It's I have to I'm on call I'm addicted whatever it might be What are some of the ways I
start to put the damn thing down and reengage with real life?

425
00:27:28,972 --> 00:27:30,432
Beautiful.

426
00:27:30,472 --> 00:27:36,492
So the book actually lays out 30 different days of different interventions, right?

427
00:27:36,492 --> 00:27:42,482
And they build on themselves, on each other, and help you behave more flexibly with your
phone.

428
00:27:42,482 --> 00:27:46,732
So what you're really talking about is like flexibly behaving with your phone.

429
00:27:46,732 --> 00:27:51,312
Like how do I be flexible with this shiny, beautiful rectangle in my hand, right?

430
00:27:51,312 --> 00:27:57,900
And one of the early interventions that I love is, I call it a five.

431
00:27:57,900 --> 00:27:59,420
a round robin, right?

432
00:27:59,420 --> 00:28:09,780
It's a five senses round robin where every time before you open up your phone, take 30
seconds and pay attention to each one of your senses.

433
00:28:09,780 --> 00:28:18,180
So 30 seconds attending to sound, 30 seconds attending to sensation in your body, 30
seconds attending to smell, right?

434
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:24,560
Like each of the five sensations and just go through each one and then go into your phone.

435
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,480
It's this anchoring moment, right?

436
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:26,956
Like,

437
00:28:26,956 --> 00:28:30,256
What is happening right now in this world?

438
00:28:30,296 --> 00:28:33,656
And really, what am I choosing to go in there and do?

439
00:28:33,656 --> 00:28:43,996
So then that small moment provides you with a little bit of space to make a choice about
how you move forward.

440
00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:51,016
And all of this is really about you getting to find that space so that you get to make
that choice.

441
00:28:51,016 --> 00:28:53,136
Like, how am I going to use the phone right now?

442
00:28:53,136 --> 00:28:55,820
And if you don't have time,

443
00:28:56,012 --> 00:29:03,312
to do a little three minute meditation before you get into your phone, before you have to
do something else.

444
00:29:03,312 --> 00:29:06,072
You actually don't have time to get in your phone at all.

445
00:29:06,072 --> 00:29:07,472
Don't fucking open your phone.

446
00:29:07,472 --> 00:29:09,572
Just do something else.

447
00:29:09,912 --> 00:29:11,922
So it's a good measure.

448
00:29:11,922 --> 00:29:17,182
I have a lot of my clients who are like, I don't have time to meditate 20 minutes in the
morning.

449
00:29:17,182 --> 00:29:20,672
And I'm like, babe, then you're going to need to meditate 40 minutes, if that's true.

450
00:29:20,672 --> 00:29:22,832
You're going to need even more.

451
00:29:22,832 --> 00:29:24,464
So it's the same here.

452
00:29:24,464 --> 00:29:25,524
not just the phone like that.

453
00:29:25,524 --> 00:29:29,104
That applies to like any decision you're about to make or any action you're about to take.

454
00:29:29,104 --> 00:29:31,424
Like we are constantly just in my head.

455
00:29:31,424 --> 00:29:36,854
I see people do this and I live there sometimes myself just swinging vine to vine.

456
00:29:36,854 --> 00:29:37,924
Just grab the next one.

457
00:29:37,924 --> 00:29:38,654
Swing to the next.

458
00:29:38,654 --> 00:29:39,334
Grab the next one.

459
00:29:39,334 --> 00:29:39,764
Swing.

460
00:29:39,764 --> 00:29:44,844
We never just get off the damn tree and look around to see that we're in a beautiful
forest.

461
00:29:44,844 --> 00:29:50,544
And then like, or even just like swing on that same vine, just a couple swings, right?

462
00:29:50,544 --> 00:29:53,864
Like, what a gift to get to pause.

463
00:29:53,884 --> 00:29:55,064
You're so right.

464
00:29:55,064 --> 00:29:59,294
We are moving so fast, so fast.

465
00:29:59,294 --> 00:30:02,484
And like, this thing is going to be over, right?

466
00:30:02,484 --> 00:30:04,834
Like, I know you can't see it because I just got my Botox done.

467
00:30:04,834 --> 00:30:06,824
It looks pretty good, right?

468
00:30:06,824 --> 00:30:10,444
But like, the rental unit is getting older.

469
00:30:10,564 --> 00:30:11,404
And like,

470
00:30:11,404 --> 00:30:13,584
I see it more in my kids, right?

471
00:30:13,584 --> 00:30:19,054
Because they're growing faster and like, and I also see my face all the time, so I sort of
habituate to that.

472
00:30:19,054 --> 00:30:23,684
But like, this ride is going to come to an end, right?

473
00:30:23,684 --> 00:30:30,284
And do I want to spend the whole thing chasing and running and like catching up?

474
00:30:30,464 --> 00:30:37,476
Like, can I just sit for like one minute and just be here?

475
00:30:37,476 --> 00:30:39,616
Yeah, absolutely.

476
00:30:40,356 --> 00:30:41,126
We're going to sit.

477
00:30:41,126 --> 00:30:41,996
We're going to be.

478
00:30:41,996 --> 00:30:46,956
What's maybe two more things that we can do when we're done doing nothing for three
minutes?

479
00:30:46,956 --> 00:30:49,876
So two more things you can do when you're done doing nothing.

480
00:30:50,776 --> 00:30:53,556
A fun intervention.

481
00:30:54,395 --> 00:30:58,816
My husband was like, I fucking hate this, Jenny, but all right.

482
00:30:58,916 --> 00:31:00,636
So it's called point and call.

483
00:31:00,636 --> 00:31:04,256
So one of the interventions that I introduced, it's called point and call.

484
00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:12,812
And what it is is it's a Japanese OSHA safety standard that the train conductors use.

485
00:31:12,812 --> 00:31:13,192
Right?

486
00:31:13,192 --> 00:31:18,152
And so they actually narrate all of their behavior as they're doing it.

487
00:31:18,152 --> 00:31:22,312
So just for a single day, experiment with this.

488
00:31:22,312 --> 00:31:26,152
Narrate everything you do in your phone.

489
00:31:26,372 --> 00:31:27,732
Jenny's picking up the phone.

490
00:31:27,732 --> 00:31:29,372
Jenny is flipping the phone over.

491
00:31:29,372 --> 00:31:30,292
Jenny's waiting.

492
00:31:30,292 --> 00:31:32,076
Jenny just got a.

493
00:31:32,076 --> 00:31:33,556
Email, Jenny's swiping up.

494
00:31:33,556 --> 00:31:34,416
Nope, that didn't work.

495
00:31:34,416 --> 00:31:36,686
OK, Jenny's clicking into Google right now.

496
00:31:36,686 --> 00:31:38,976
Jenny's scrolling through her insurance.

497
00:31:38,976 --> 00:31:42,306
Jenny is getting really annoyed at this whole process.

498
00:31:42,306 --> 00:31:44,696
Jenny's going to click out of that.

499
00:31:44,696 --> 00:31:46,776
There's not actually anything Jenny needs to be doing.

500
00:31:46,776 --> 00:31:48,946
Jenny's going to put the phone down and pay attention to right here.

501
00:31:48,946 --> 00:31:53,096
So it gives your brain a moment to recognize.

502
00:31:53,096 --> 00:31:59,376
It's this really intentional mindfulness practice for like, what am I doing right now?

503
00:31:59,376 --> 00:32:00,396
What am I?

504
00:32:00,396 --> 00:32:05,196
intending to do with this thing, and am I actually staying on task?

505
00:32:05,196 --> 00:32:05,456
Right?

506
00:32:05,456 --> 00:32:11,506
And there's a good chance you'll just drive yourself nuts and close the phone, because
it's pretty obnoxious, right?

507
00:32:11,506 --> 00:32:20,236
But if you have a task in there that you actually need to do and you don't want to make a
mistake, it's actually a really helpful strategy to help you stay on task, because it's

508
00:32:20,236 --> 00:32:28,548
making your mind note and attend to the thing that you're doing without getting sucked
into the beauty that is the shiny rectangle.

509
00:32:28,548 --> 00:32:29,056
Yeah.

510
00:32:29,056 --> 00:32:36,676
it's actually one of the things that keeps accidents in Japan train conductors' lives at
an all -time low.

511
00:32:36,716 --> 00:32:39,816
Zero people hurt for many, many years.

512
00:32:39,816 --> 00:32:42,116
They do great in terms of safety.

513
00:32:42,116 --> 00:32:43,560
And it's largely because of this.

514
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,840
How many things do we do on autopilot every day while we're thinking about anywhere?

515
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,876
Like how many car accidents would be avoided if we all just narrated our drive no matter
where we're going?

516
00:32:52,876 --> 00:33:04,356
100 % right like when I was driving to the office, I would it's a good 20 minute drive
into downtown Seattle and I would get in my Yeah, I'm out in West Seattle.

517
00:33:04,356 --> 00:33:11,566
So I'm super I'm super close to so it was close when the bridge was open, but then it went
down and then it turned into an island anyway, if you don't live here.

518
00:33:11,566 --> 00:33:22,026
But yeah, I would get in the car and I would turn on something and then suddenly I'm
pulling into my and I'm like, holy cow.

519
00:33:22,026 --> 00:33:22,764
Here we are.

520
00:33:22,764 --> 00:33:24,824
Okay, great, great news.

521
00:33:25,344 --> 00:33:31,124
Yeah, so again, that like mindfulness is a huge thing.

522
00:33:31,124 --> 00:33:38,724
Another intervention that I really love is, so just like I've named my mind Brenda, right?

523
00:33:38,724 --> 00:33:41,144
And that gives me a little bit of distance.

524
00:33:41,144 --> 00:33:46,104
It's like, yeah, like when I don't know that it's Brenda, I'm just looking at the world
through the glasses, right?

525
00:33:46,104 --> 00:33:51,824
And then when I take them off, I'm like, Brenda, you sweet old girl.

526
00:33:51,824 --> 00:33:52,620
Like what?

527
00:33:52,620 --> 00:33:54,150
What have you been up to in there?

528
00:33:54,150 --> 00:33:58,280
You're making a lot of paperwork for us, aren't you?

529
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,640
You touched a lot of files today, Brenda.

530
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:08,420
So another strategy that I introduce is to name your phone.

531
00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:13,360
So my phone's named Jolene after the Dolly Parton song.

532
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:18,540
Please don't take my man, because she just takes my time.

533
00:34:19,140 --> 00:34:22,284
The intervention in Look Up,

534
00:34:22,284 --> 00:34:37,724
It's actually called Meet Sauron because my little sister named her phone Sauron after
Lord of the Rings, this like ever present eye that is always looking for you and waiting

535
00:34:37,724 --> 00:34:41,324
and will suck you in the moment it can.

536
00:34:42,184 --> 00:34:52,420
So there's a bunch of little fun interventions woven all throughout the book and all of
them help you improve your ability to attend to the moment flexibly.

537
00:34:52,460 --> 00:35:04,280
help you clarify your values, what's really most important to you, and then help you be in
that choice point where you get to decide, okay, I have a little bit of breathing room

538
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:04,700
here.

539
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:08,180
I'm still swinging on this vine.

540
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,810
Where do I wanna go next?

541
00:35:11,588 --> 00:35:12,118
I love it.

542
00:35:12,118 --> 00:35:16,168
Where can I pick up my phone and look for the book and follow you on social media and all
of that?

543
00:35:16,168 --> 00:35:16,508
love it.

544
00:35:16,508 --> 00:35:21,498
You can pick up your phone right now and order the book on Amazon.

545
00:35:21,498 --> 00:35:23,468
It's Look Up.

546
00:35:23,628 --> 00:35:28,398
You can follow me on social media at West Coast Anxiety.

547
00:35:28,398 --> 00:35:29,518
So that's on Instagram.

548
00:35:29,518 --> 00:35:31,368
Or you can follow my personal account.

549
00:35:31,368 --> 00:35:31,608
I don't know.

550
00:35:31,608 --> 00:35:32,578
I don't really do much there.

551
00:35:32,578 --> 00:35:33,708
But I don't know.

552
00:35:33,708 --> 00:35:34,658
I talked to a brand manager.

553
00:35:34,658 --> 00:35:35,978
They're like, you should do something.

554
00:35:35,978 --> 00:35:37,238
And I'm like, fuck my life.

555
00:35:37,238 --> 00:35:38,228
All right.

556
00:35:38,348 --> 00:35:39,252
Like, what?

557
00:35:39,252 --> 00:35:43,572
do on my phone is come up with a whole separate brand and keep it updated.

558
00:35:43,572 --> 00:35:44,504
Yeah.

559
00:35:44,504 --> 00:35:49,054
you can follow me at, I think it's Jenny Ketchum or it might be becoming Jenny.

560
00:35:49,054 --> 00:35:49,864
Anyway, you'll find it.

561
00:35:49,864 --> 00:35:51,204
You'll find me.

562
00:35:52,424 --> 00:35:54,244
Yeah, exactly.

563
00:35:54,244 --> 00:35:55,106
Yeah.

564
00:35:55,116 --> 00:35:55,506
Awesome.

565
00:35:55,506 --> 00:35:56,476
Thank you so much for your time.

566
00:35:56,476 --> 00:35:57,126
This is a lot of fun.

567
00:35:57,126 --> 00:35:58,276
I really appreciate the time.

568
00:35:58,276 --> 00:35:59,948
And say hello to Seattle for me.

569
00:35:59,948 --> 00:36:01,528
Thanks, Jeremy, we miss you.

570
00:36:01,528 --> 00:36:03,028
Come on back anytime.

571
00:36:03,765 --> 00:36:05,647
My thanks to our guest, Jenny Ketchum Crooks.

572
00:36:05,647 --> 00:36:06,698
She's the author of Look Up.

573
00:36:06,698 --> 00:36:11,413
You can find links to her and that book in the show notes for this episode at thefitmess
.com.

574
00:36:11,413 --> 00:36:14,376
And that's where we'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

575
00:36:14,376 --> 00:36:15,347
Thanks so much for listening.