How You Can Force Your Anxiety to Tap Out By Using the Emotional Freedom Technique with Katie Nall

[00:00:00] Zach: Have you ever felt like you wanted to physically remove a negative feeling from your. you can, it's called tapping and on today's show, you get to hear me go through a tapping session in real time. 

[00:00:11] Jeremy: Our guest is Dr. Katie Nall. She's a TEDx speaker, author, accredited master trainer and practitioner of EFT. The emotional freedom technique.

[00:00:21] Zach: Welcome to the fitness. Thanks for listening while you're doing whatever it is that you're doing right now. I'm Zach, he's Jeremy and together we're two vulnerable guys helping you overcome struggles to achieve your mental and physical wellness goals. Jeremy, I'm really excited about today's topic because this really is an amazing tool for people to achieve those wellness.

[00:01:00] Jeremy: It's another one of those tools that had you offered this to me 10 years ago, I would have laughed in your face. In fact, I watched a movie. I don't even, I think it was 10 years ago, uh, called, , what the bleep do we know? And that was the first time I saw someone doing the tapping technique.

[00:01:15] And I just went well, that's complete bullshit. There's that? Can't, that can't do anything. That's gotta be just nonsense, but I've now done it and I've experienced the benefits of it. And so I'm excited to share with people, Hey, this isn't complete bullshit. It's not complete nonsense. It might actually be.

[00:01:32] Zach: know you'll hear it later on, , but in the interview , I got to do what's happening session live and , I had followed along on other ones, but that was kinda my first time ever doing it. And it was pretty impressive. Like the difference in feelings at the end of it, it was, it was pretty crazy

[00:01:47] Jeremy: And if you don't know what we're talking about, it's the concept of literally tapping on various points of your head face and , collarbone while reciting, uh,

[00:01:56] reciting words that are basically like positive affirmations and, and you'll hear a better explanation from Dr. Nolan just a minute, but why it is funny watching you go through it. There is a, you can see there's a shift in your face where things just get lighter. So I can see why this is something beneficial for someone who just is constantly worrying about things. So it has a lot of anxiety who is, you know, weighted down by fear and just exhaustion and stress. All of these things that actually, uh, Dr.

[00:02:22] Nall refers to them as her waffles, literally worries, anxiety, fear, frustration, lethargy, exhaustion, and. All of these things can be treated through the practice of EFT through this practice of tapping various points on your body but as you're about to find out, nobody even really understands completely why it works.

[00:02:40] Zach: Just that it does. 

[00:02:42] Jeremy: Yeah. 

[00:02:43] Zach: Yeah. Initially when I saw waffle, I just got really hungry because I love waffles. But Dr. Katie now is talking about different waffles , than what I was thinking of. 

[00:02:54] we got to talk to her recently about EFT and how she's made a name for herself by showing people how to dissolve their waffles. So we asked her to explain what that really means. 

[00:03:05] Katie Nall - USB: Waffles are worries, anxiety, fear, frustration, lethargy, exhaustion, and stress. And which is the number one cause of medical visits. When I can show people how to not just control, but eliminate their waffles, dissolve their waffles, and they then are in control of their emotions. Instead their emotions controlling them.

[00:03:30] They can be healthier and it's a fabulous, fabulous technique. 

[00:03:34] Zach: , so it's the emotional freedom technique. Right. So tell us about that. What is it, how does it work and why does it work? 

[00:03:42] Katie Nall - USB: Okay. So three good questions. One of which I'll be able to answer it. So emotional freedom technique is also called E F T or tapping.

[00:03:53] It was developed around 1990 by of course, a electrical engineer from Stanford, a university by the name of Gary Craig. He was observing what psychologists and psychiatrists were doing to help. Clinically ill people with depression. Th the, the psychologists and psychiatrists were frustrated because traditional talk therapy wasn't working.

[00:04:18] So they did research and found that traditional Chinese medicine was using something called meridians, which are energy pathways to believe to be in our body. And they found. Tapping on different points of the body and I'll explain where the points are and what we do with them could re help their clients so much more than just talk therapy.

[00:04:42] Well, Gary Craig, who's an electrical engineer was kind of looking at all this and saying, these look like electrical circuits to me. And so as an engineer, if we just like tap on just a few points, we're going to get 96 to 98% of , all of those energy pathways. So he developed this, put everything out on the internet for free is still out there and went his Merry way.

[00:05:07] And then a lot of people went, wait a minute. This stuff is kind of interesting now in terms of how it works. We're not really sure exactly. There's a lot of hypothesis going around. It is a sematic method that because we're involving the body and there's talk in it that the combination of the two seem to be real strong.

[00:05:27] What we have seen in clinical studies all over the world for the last 30 years is that it is way more effective than cognitive behavioral therapy.

[00:05:38] Jeremy: It's fascinating because I've seen videos. Long before I was open to anything spiritual or as we like to refer to it as the woo, I would see videos of people doing this, of tapping on parts of their face and just thought that is the most silly nonsense I've ever seen in my life. But there is real science that backs this up. 

[00:06:00] Katie Nall - USB: You're right. And you're right, Jeremy, they've done studies, Dr. Peter Stapleton is at the forefront of doing studies and bond university in Australia. And she's done MRR. People before and after tapping and she can see differences in their brains, they can check things like cortisol levels.

[00:06:20] Blood pressure is reduced. There's a school out in Pacific Grove. California Pacific Grove, middle school. They do tapping for six minutes a day. Every day, the students do it, the faculty do it, the staff do it. Everybody in school does it for six minutes a day. And they found doing that. And they've been doing that for a number of years.

[00:06:38] Now, they have found that the academic grades are going up, that the disruptions are going down and even special education kids are, are gaining much more just by tapping. 

[00:06:52] Zach: Wow. That's incredible. So, you mentioned a little bit when you described waffle, but and you, you discovered this with helping people through math class.

[00:07:03] But it's not just for math classes. There's a whole bunch of applicability. Can you talk a little bit about where you can apply it? 

[00:07:11] Katie Nall - USB: Zachary? When I was working on my dissertation for my PhD, I wanted to help students who have this fear and anxiety about math. So I started looking and couldn't find anything.

[00:07:22] And then I realized that, well, this sounds like a word problem. And in word problems, what do you do? You just go to, what is the core? And the core was how do you reduce fear and anxiety? It was 2010. I happened to catch Nick Ortner, his 10 day tapping summit, which he's still doing and is still doing this year.

[00:07:40] People should grab, grab onto it, watched all 10 days, bought the book, but the DVD. And the whole time they were talking about things like financial abundance, they were talking about relationships. They were talking about weight loss, addictions. Nobody was talking about math or test anxiety. I had no idea if it was going to work or not, but I thought.

[00:08:02] These students are desperate. They're going to try it. Sure enough. They were lining up in my office and I said, Hey, we have no idea if this is going to work or not, but why don't we try it? They needed one class left to graduate, so they would get started and I'd say, okay, just follow me while they were following me right along.

[00:08:20] And they would come back one by one 

[00:08:22] Zach: saying. 

[00:08:24] Katie Nall - USB: I passed my math class, Jeremy. Exactly. I don't know who was more surprised them or me. We had no idea if it was going to work or not. From that. I then I was an adjunct instructor at the college and every time I taught a math class, we would start the session off with, okay, let's talk.

[00:08:44] Not all the students bought into it, but the ones who did and actually did tap. Their grades improved. They came back to me after class saying I get it now. I ran into one of the students in a restaurant later on and she was like, this is helping me with raising my kids and increasing my patients.

[00:09:02] And I was like, okay.

[00:09:05] Jeremy: That's awesome. just being upfront, I woke up this morning with stress, fear, anxiety, don't know where any of it came from. I just woke up and it was there. It's been this cloud hanging over my head. So in doing some research for this, I saw you doing some demonstrations of this work and my depression runs deep.

[00:09:26] It's, it's a big, heavy cloud, but I walked through the session and that I understand we're going to, we're going to do some of this together here in just a moment, but in doing so. I did feel some relief. I felt a little bit of lightness and it reminded me of one way. I've been treating my depression lately is running when I feel it.

[00:09:43] And when I have the awareness and can just force myself to put on some shoes and go outside, I'll run and I will run until I'm exhausted. And it's out in the, and I can't, and I can't feel it anymore. And there was a similarity. It wasn't the same, but there was, there was something I think in the intention of I'm going to decide to do this.

[00:10:02] And just the physical movement and maybe something about the symmetry of the movement. I don't know, but I definitely felt some of the effect. Do you, do you hear that a lot from, from people that you work with on this, that, that that it can relieve some of that really kind of deep emotional baggage that people carry. 

[00:10:20] Katie Nall - USB: Well, first of all, Jeremy my heart goes out to you. I know, I know that feeling and thank you so much. Or for trying, tapping and after the show, if you'd like, you can schedule a free session with me, I'd love to help you with 

[00:10:32] Jeremy: Oh, thank you. That'd be great. 

[00:10:33] Katie Nall - USB: So I'll, I'll tell you a story that a client has given me permission to share.

[00:10:38] She came to me, she was a friend and she said, Katie, I want to hire you. I, I just need to have some focus. I, I can't, I'm not able to focus on what I'm doing. I'm like, yeah, sure. That's fine. Hey, here's my, here's my discovery form. Just fill this out and get it back to me and we'll get started. Oh, my gosh, she brought it back and I read through it and I was like, you do understand I'm a mathematician, right?

[00:11:03] Her, her form had that. She was clinically depressed. She had been suicidal. She was seeing a therapist right now and she was not on one, but on two antidepressants, I said, I'm not, I'm not, no, this is outside my league. I'm a mathematician. I can't do this. And she was insistent. She said, I really want to work with you.

[00:11:27] I really, I just want to focus. I'm like, I've done this long enough to know that just wanting to focus, if we're we peel back layers until we get to what the real issue is. And I was like, I'm not talking to so. Every tapping certified practitioner has a mentor. That's part of what you have to do to be certified.

[00:11:47] So I went to my mentor and I explained the situation and she's like, yeah, don't touch that at all. I said, got it. She, my friend came to me after a few weeks. Persistent still and said, I've talked to my therapist. My therapist suggests that tapping would be a good idea. I said, hold, that thought, went to my mentor.

[00:12:06] I'm like, what do you think now? She's like, well, as long as the therapist is in agreement and everybody knows what's going on. That's okay. That's okay. So we got started. We did one hour of tapping once a month. I went back to look at the notes. Cause I'm like, this can't be true once a month for six weeks.

[00:12:26] One hour once a month. That's all we did at the end of six months. She and I were talking because we were friends and her focus had been increasing and she's just really was talking to me and said, I was out walking the other day with my friend who used to be my therapist. 

[00:12:42] Zach: Stop. 

[00:12:44] Katie Nall - USB: What do you mean used to be your therapist?

[00:12:46] What's going on? You were supposed to tell me, oh, I told you, no, you never told me what was happening. She said, well, I got off all my antidepressants, I, my therapist, and I both believe that I no longer needed to see her. And now she's just a friend one hour, once a month for six months.

[00:13:08] Jeremy: incredible. That's that's not something you hear often. 

[00:13:12] Zach: no, 

[00:13:12] Katie Nall - USB: no, no, 

[00:13:13] Jeremy: For any modality, 

[00:13:14] Katie Nall - USB: I, myself was in therapy once a week for four years to try and get some balance in my life. Right. Had a great therapist. I loved him. I thought he was wonderful as I was walking out of the door on our agreed upon last day, he said, oh, by the way, Katie I just wanted to let you know that some of those emotions that we've gone through and I mean gone through right.

[00:13:36] Ah, 

[00:13:38] Jeremy: right? 

[00:13:39] Katie Nall - USB: They may pop up again. If the circumstances are. Hi with my hand around. And I said, what are you talking about? I thought we were done with this. And what the clinical studies are showing is that cognitive behavior therapy is not as effective as either E M D R eye movement desensitation recalibration, or I think that's it, or EFT emotional freedom technique.

[00:14:04] And they found with E M D R and EMT. Once you identify the issue and, and and get down to the very bottom. It does not return. Now, let me expand on that a little bit. I had a six foot, four retired air force captain come to me and said, I hate spiders. He worked on a ranch, there were spiders everywhere.

[00:14:27] It's like, what are we going to do? I said, okay, what is it about the spiders that you don't like? It's like, I hate the webs, just like, Ugh, just can't get through the webs. So we tapped, we got through the webs. I thought, great. We're done. I saw him a few weeks later. I said, how are you doing with those spikes?

[00:14:44] I hate spiders. I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we had this all taken care of. He said, oh, I have no problem with the webs. He said, I just hate the way they walk their holes. So you could have one incident that has many what we call aspects. I've worked with people who have a fearful.

[00:15:05] And, um, I had a client who right about the time that pandemic started. She had to fly from Florida to California back about every few weeks for medical. And first of all, she. She wasn't uncomfortable with the mask. And whenever she was in an airplane, she felt like it was just, it was claustrophobic.

[00:15:24] So we tapped on all of that and she got to the point where she could get on the airplane without completely losing it. So there are different aspects, you know, somebody may say that the fear of flying, but what is it about it? Is it the noise? Is it the claustrophobia? Is it, is it being up in the air?

[00:15:40] Is it not being in the oven?

[00:15:42] Jeremy: Right, right. That would be the worst part of flying, but not being up in the air part. I think. 

[00:15:48] Zach: so in doing some research about you, I heard a story that you told that went a little bit beyond tapping. And you mentioned something called quantum memory and a woman who had a memory of being stabbed in the back in a former life. My mind is just blown on that. Like my, my logical brain is going Nope.

[00:16:11] But the woo side of my brain and the actual stabbing pain I have in my back right now is saying, tell me more. Can you tell me about that? And tell me a little bit more about what quantum memory. 

[00:16:21] Katie Nall - USB: Absolutely is accurate. So after I, bought the book, bought the DVD and I was working with the students, I realized I don't have any idea what I'm doing.

[00:16:31] I think I should get drained. So I went back and I got trained in level one, level two, level three, and I'm always looking for what else is out there with tapping. So I did quantity. I did trauma tapping. I'm actually in something right now called picture tapping, which is very interesting. But the quantum tapping was just on the edge of where to use your terminology, the patient with the client, the client.

[00:17:01] I used the word patient because she's a chiropractor, but the client came in and she was behind in writing. Patient reports. She only got paid. If the patient reports were written and submitted, she had over a hundred patient reports overdue. She was not happy. Her partner was even less happy. In fact, it was her partner who sent her in, said, you got to get this straightened out.

[00:17:29] So we talked for awhile and recognized that there was something about our fifth grade English teacher that was, giving her grief and we got it to a certain level, but we couldn't get it down to. Now, when she had come into the office, she came in holding her back, which I thought was unusual for a chiropractor who had a chiropractor partner.

[00:17:52] What was that all about? But I didn't say anything. She didn't say anything. We were not getting anywhere with why she couldn't get into the hundred, overdo reports until I finally said, what's going on with your back? And she said, I don't know, I've got this pain, this really sharp pain in my back.

[00:18:12] And it's been there for the longest time. I can't get rid of it. I said, let's try some of this quantum tapping and see what happens well in the process of the quantum. And what's interesting. Zachary is when we do quantum tapping the information, doesn't come to me, it comes to the client, the client gets the information and then they tell it to me.

[00:18:33] Zach: It's always interesting. 

[00:18:35] Katie Nall - USB: And so as we were doing that, Oh, I was a Roman soldier and in the battle and in battle, somebody stabbed me with their sword in my back and killed me. And so we tapped on how the emotion that was attached to that. And as we tapped on the emotion to that, the emotion about writing those hundred reports, which who knows why that was attached to that at all, just went collapsed to zero.

[00:19:06] Within one week, she completed her hundred reports and it's been for years and she's been able to stay current. 

[00:19:15] Zach: Wow. Right.

[00:19:18] Jeremy: That's wild. So, we, we talked a little bit before we started recording about a demonstration. So if you wouldn't mind, uh, I'd love to dive in and see how this works firsthand.

[00:19:29] Katie Nall - USB: I'd love to Zachary and understand you're my victim volunteer today. 

[00:19:33] Zach: That's what I've been voluntold. Okay. 

[00:19:37] Katie Nall - USB: So, I'm going to ask you a whole bunch of questions. And then what we will do is we'll tap on the points by themselves and then we'll add words. Is that okay? That's fine. Okay. And I'm going to take notes because as it turns out, the most important part of this is using your words.

[00:19:55] So the first question I'm going to ask you is I'm going to ask you to repeat statements, words. And if I do, if you think that's not really true, or I would say it in a different way, for instance, you may say that you're anxious about something and I may use the words that well, I have a lot of stress.

[00:20:14] Well, you didn't say stress, you said anxious. So it's really important that you use the same words. The first question is, will you restate words in your own words, your own vocabulary? If I ask you to repeat something that doesn't ring true. Yeah. Okay, good. So can you think of a little tiny frustration or something small that is just irritating you in the last day or two?

[00:20:41] Zach: I think the bigger, the bigger issue here is picking which one, So 

[00:20:48] Katie Nall - USB: with tapping, you don't even have to tell me what it is. Okay. But you have to have it very clear in your mind what it is.

[00:20:55] And only one 

[00:20:56] Zach: thing. Okay. I think I've 

[00:21:00] Katie Nall - USB: got it. Okay. So if you have pen and paper, if you'll write it down, that 

[00:21:04] Zach: would be good. Oh good. My daughter did not steal my pen, which is what one of the frustrations was earlier. She stole my journal. 

[00:21:16] Katie Nall - USB: So you can write that down. And so, whatever it is, that is the issue.

[00:21:25] Tell me the last time that it occurred. 

[00:21:31] Zach: It happened, it happened this morning, about two and a half hours ago. Okay. 

[00:21:41] Katie Nall - USB: Two and a half hours ago. And where were you in this house? 

[00:21:45] Zach: Sitting right here on my desk. 

[00:21:47] Katie Nall - USB: Okay. And when you think about the issue that happened this morning, about two and a half hours ago at your desk, what emotion is coming up?

[00:22:01] Zach: Couple frustration disappointment. And I'll be specific disappointment in myself.

[00:22:11] Anything else? Anger. 

[00:22:13] Katie Nall - USB: Okay. 

[00:22:15] Zach: Anything else?

[00:22:19] And there's some shame mixed in. Okay. 

[00:22:22] Katie Nall - USB: So out of frustration, disappointment, anger, and shame, which one is the strongest? Disappointment disappointment. Okay. And from the zero to 10, where zero is like, eh, I'll get over it. No big deal. And 10 is the highest level of disappointment you've had in your life.

[00:22:40] Where is this one issue? In terms of 

[00:22:43] Zach: numbers? It's not right in the middle, but I would, it's a little bit higher. So I'd say a six 

[00:22:48] Katie Nall - USB: six. Okay. And when you think about this issue that happened this morning, about two and a half years ago, while you were sitting at your desk from the top of your head to the bottom of your toes, where do you feel it in your body?

[00:23:01] Where's that disappointment 

[00:23:03] Zach: landing? In my chest and my upper abdomen. Okay. And that's a very regular feeling for me. Okay. Okay. 

[00:23:14] Katie Nall - USB: And the last question is, is this a true statement right here? Right now? I feel safe. 

[00:23:22] Zach: Yes. Okay. 

[00:23:24] Katie Nall - USB: So we're going to start with tapping on the points just so we know what we do, and then we're going to add the words.

[00:23:29] Is that all right? Sure. Okay. So on the side of the hand, and you can use either hand, it doesn't matter between the wrist and the little thing. You're going to start tapping right there. You can use all four fingers of the other hand and tap right there and breathe and think about that issue and the disappointment you have in your chest and your abdomen.

[00:23:50] And just think about that breathe. And then we're going to move to w w when I add we're going to have a sentence here and it'll be repeated three times when we add now, that'll be right here on the side of the hand. Okay. Okay. And then the next spot is right on the top of the head. Yeah. And you can use one hand or the other, or both.

[00:24:07] You can do the monkey move if you want. 

[00:24:10] Zach: My headphones are just in the way. Oh yeah, that's 

[00:24:12] Katie Nall - USB: right. That's right. That's right. Okay. And morning I'm coming in for a closeup. Okay. The next one is on the edge of your eyebrow, right? On the edge or your eyebrow, right above your nose. And again, you can use one hand or the other or both.

[00:24:26] Zach: And then the 

[00:24:26] Katie Nall - USB: next one is on the side of the eye between the eye and the Herald. Have you ever been in a meeting and seen somebody doing this they'll soothing? The next spot is where I keep all my bags for quick getaway and that's under my 

[00:24:42] Zach: eyes.

[00:24:46] Katie Nall - USB: I'm waiting for Kim Kardashian to start blacking her eyes. So I'll be in fashion under the nose. This is an X above 

[00:24:52] Zach: the lips.

[00:24:56] Katie Nall - USB: And then we go under the lips above the ch. And then I usually have my clients join the wrist with the palms towards them and tap right on the color. But. And Bri, oh, it's so good to breathe. And then the last spot is we're gonna give our ribs a good ribbing. 

[00:25:15] Zach: So

[00:25:22] Katie Nall - USB: now I usually have my clients blow all their out, looking like a cartoon figure. So it looks like this.

[00:25:30] Zach: I don't know if I can do that with my mouth, but yeah, go ahead and try it. 

[00:25:35] Katie Nall - USB: That was perfect. Okay. Okay. So you ready? Let's get started. Okay. So we'll start on the side of the hand and say, even though, even though when I 

[00:25:46] Zach: think about this issue, when I think about this 

[00:25:49] Katie Nall - USB: issue, the one that just happened two and a half hours ago right here on my.

[00:25:53] The one 

[00:25:53] Zach: that happened two and a half hours ago right here at my desk. I feel this 

[00:25:57] Katie Nall - USB: disappointment in my chest and 

[00:25:59] Zach: abdomen. I feel this disappointment and my chest and abdomen 

[00:26:03] Katie Nall - USB: and right here right now, I feel 

[00:26:04] Zach: safe in right here. Right now. I feel safe even though, even though I have this 

[00:26:11] Katie Nall - USB: disappointment in my chest and that.

[00:26:14] Zach: I have this disappointment in my chest and abdomen. 

[00:26:17] Katie Nall - USB: When I think about what happened this morning, about two and a half hours ago, 

[00:26:22] Zach: when I think about what happened just two and a half hours ago, 

[00:26:26] Katie Nall - USB: right here, right now, I feel safe 

[00:26:28] Zach: right here right now. I feel safe even though, 

[00:26:31] Katie Nall - USB: even though my chest and abdomen is full, is full of disappointment.

[00:26:37] Zach: chest and abdomen is full of disappointment. When I 

[00:26:40] Katie Nall - USB: think about that issue this morning. 

[00:26:43] Zach: I think about that issue this morning, I was sitting at 

[00:26:45] Katie Nall - USB: my desk. 

[00:26:47] Zach: I was sitting at my desk 

[00:26:48] Katie Nall - USB: right here, right now. I feel safe 

[00:26:51] Zach: right here. Right now. I 

[00:26:52] Katie Nall - USB: feel safe. And then top of your head around your headphones this disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen, just 

[00:26:59] Zach: disappointment, disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen on the edge of 

[00:27:03] Katie Nall - USB: your algebra.

[00:27:04] This is the appointment in my chest and my upper abdomen. 

[00:27:07] Zach: This disappointment in my chest and upper. 

[00:27:10] Katie Nall - USB: I do the I, this disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen, this 

[00:27:15] Zach: disappointment of my chest and upper abdomen 

[00:27:17] Katie Nall - USB: under the eye, this disappointment and my chest and upper abdomen, this 

[00:27:22] Zach: disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen 

[00:27:25] Katie Nall - USB: under the nose, this disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen, 

[00:27:29] Zach: this disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen under the lips, 

[00:27:33] Katie Nall - USB: this disappointment in my chest and upper.

[00:27:37] Zach: This disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen 

[00:27:40] Katie Nall - USB: on your collarbone. This disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen, this 

[00:27:45] Zach: disappointment in my chest and upper abdomen 

[00:27:49] Katie Nall - USB: at those ribs, this disappointment in my chest 

[00:27:52] Zach: and upper abdomen, it's disappointment and my chest and upper abdomen.

[00:28:03] Katie Nall - USB: It was funny to watch. Jeremy. Did you see his face change? 

[00:28:09] Zach: What happened? It 

[00:28:11] Jeremy: got lighter. 

[00:28:12] Zach: yeah. How you feeling? I feel good. I feel surprisingly warm inside if that makes sense. Yeah. 

[00:28:26] Katie Nall - USB: So from zero to 10, when you think about that issue this morning and the disappointment that you had in your upper abdomen and your chest, where is it now?

[00:28:37] Zach: They don't really feel like it's anywhere, but any more.

[00:28:46] I love this stuff. I'm like doing a full body scan now. Like where is it? Where'd it go? 

[00:28:53] Jeremy: If I can ask a question where you don't feel it, but do you, do you logically feel like you're supposed to like mentally, are you looking for it because you're attached to that disappointment and frustration? 

[00:29:07] Zach: Yeah. I am looking for it because it's there.

[00:29:10] Jeremy: Yeah, cause that's, that's the same for me, even whether it's this or when I go for the run or whatever, once it's gone mentally, I'm going, no, I need that. That's that's me. Where is that? And I look for it. And so it's, it's interesting to be able to go through this exercise. And ha and, and notice the separation, I guess, is I think maybe the power, the powerful part that I, that I am most interested in just for my own sake is to try and find more separation between me and that feeling.

[00:29:44] Because my whole life, that feeling has been who I am. 

[00:29:49] Katie Nall - USB: That's interesting. You bring that up. Jeremy, there's a, there's a process called secondary secondary gains. And some people come in and say, they want to have whatever negative emotion out of their life. And we tap and we tap and we tap and nothing happens and I have to stop and think, well, If you have the situation, why wouldn't it be released?

[00:30:17] I had one student who was a high school student and it didn't matter what we did. Nothing went down. It took me weeks to figure out that if her. her level went down to zero, she would no longer talk to me. And she was in a situation where both her parents were working at home. They were both really, it was during COVID.

[00:30:40] They were both busy in their own little places. And I was really the only adult. She can have a conversation with. And so she has secondary gains that, Jeremy and Zach, you both say you're looking for that, that feeling to dissipate to, to be away. But for some people, if that feeling goes away, they may not be getting what they need, whether it's attention from me or attention from, if you have somebody who's really, really sick and everybody's spending a lot of attention with that.

[00:31:12] Where they weren't doing it before. If they get well, who's going to pay attention to 

[00:31:17] Zach: them. Yeah. 

[00:31:19] Jeremy: Wow. 

[00:31:21] Zach: Yeah. I do want to make one additional comment though. Like as I'm, as I'm sitting here, I just noticed my, like my shoulders and my shoulder blade, just like when, just deflated, like they were, they were up and.

[00:31:34] They like came down and that's where I hold all my stress in my shoulders, my chest. So I just, just for more information I just feel like my whole body, like a weight just lifted off of me. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:31:49] Katie Nall - USB: Yeah. The most frequent response I get from clients is I feel so much lighter. It just it's like everything 

[00:31:58] Zach: just.

[00:32:00] Jeremy: but and to go back, I guess to the beginning quickly, we don't really know why 'cause that's I kept trying to rationalize, what is It Is it the activity? Am I distracting? Am I doing something sort of silly and attaching it to this pain point and therefore lightening the weight that, that weight has?

[00:32:18] But, but we don't know it could be any or all, or none of those.

[00:32:23] Zach: It 

[00:32:23] Katie Nall - USB: was an interesting study done by a professor at Auburn university in Auburn, Alabama, where he found. Something, he didn't know what to call them, but they're invisible somethings that are running through our bodies that near where the meridians are there. They're like fish fishing wire, very, very thin.

[00:32:43] And they're running right where the meridians are and they are invisible until they're tapped and then they turn yellow. So because we can't measure. And because we don't have the tools to identify exactly what's going on. A lot of people struggle with trying to accept what's happening.

[00:33:04] Jeremy: Yeah. Wow. That's powerful stuff. Uh, fascinating. And now I'm very curious to learn more. So thank you so much for your time. Where can we learn more about you and and the services you offer? 

[00:33:16] Katie Nall - USB: Um, my email is hello at Dr. nall.com, H E L L O N D R N a L l.com. I'm a bit of a punster. So my website is my last name, N a L L followed by the word edge E D G E. C O for company.com it's knowledge company.com. 

[00:33:36] Jeremy: That's very funny. 

[00:33:37] Katie Nall - USB: And I will tell your listeners that I love when people call me so they can call me directly at area code 7 7 2 4 8 0 0 5 4 1.

[00:33:48] In fact, I'm returning a phone call from somebody who actually called me last week. If you call, leave your name and your phone number, and I'm just delighted to be able to speak with you.

[00:33:58] Jeremy: Great stuff. We will have links and that phone number on the show notes for this episode@thefitness.com. Thank you again so much for your time and insight on this. It's a, it's been a fascinating. 

[00:34:07] Katie Nall - USB: Yeah, lots of you are doing for everyone. 

[00:34:10] Zach: All right. That was Dr. Katie now master trainer in practitioner of EFT, the emotional freedom technique. You can find links to her and her work, as well as that phone number she gave in the show notes of this episode at the fitness center. 

[00:34:24] Jeremy: Zach in that interview, she offered to meet with me to deal with some of my depression issues. And I took her up on that offer. And it is an interesting procedure to go through. , when you're digging a little deeper, like you guys kept it pretty surface with some just like frustrations that you were having.

[00:34:41] We were trying to sort out like , some sadness that I didn't know where it was coming from. So depressed depression. I didn't know where it was coming from. And it's a weird, first of all, it's weird. Cause you're, you know, it's virtual, I'm on a zoom call, much, much like, uh, everyone else is doing these days, but I'm just going through this process of tapping these points on my face, repeating the same message over and over again.

[00:35:01] And you just, you feel ridiculous at first, but then you do a couple of rounds and all of a sudden your brain starts going to some weird places and starts opening up some things. And suddenly in the middle of this, I don't know, maybe the third round through of repeating the mantra and like tapping these points on my body.

[00:35:21] All of a sudden I saw me as a child. I saw me as a child that was desperate to be seen desperate, to be loved. Desperate to be comforted because he was afraid and felt very alone. And I just suddenly started just weeping. Like I just broke down and was just crying and I'm in my daughter's bedroom on a zoom call crying like an idiot.

[00:35:46] And. But it was just, it was the strangest. It was. And here's the thing. It wasn't the strangest thing, because I've done this before, not through tapping, but through some, some deep meditation and some breath work I've experienced what I've had described to me as astral projections. I don't know if that's real.

[00:36:04] I want to believe in that. It seems cool, but I've been able to, in some way, in my mind, travel back to comfort myself as a child, like literally stand next to me and comfort. And it was very much the same thing. It was, it, it was the ability to be with that sort of traumatized scared version of me and try and help him.

[00:36:26] And that was when the session changed. Like the, the technique was the same tapping, the same points following sort of the same rhythm, the same breathing, but then the messaging changed from, uh, it was something to the effect of, you know, I feel sad, but I'm safe to talking to that child version of me and coaching him through his fear and his sad.

[00:36:46] And man at the end, it was, I was exhausted, but much like your experience that we just heard there was, I just was lighter. Like I just felt a lot of it lifted away. And I've only done it once I should do it more because I do feel like it was very beneficial. You heard her story of the person she worked with.

[00:37:03] It was like six sessions once a month. And all of a sudden they were in a much better place. So it is something I think I should pursue because this is something that I've battled my entire life. I continue to battle. Now these last few weeks, especially been , particularly rough for me. , so I, I hope that for someone who maybe like me.

[00:37:22] like they've sort of tried a lot of things and feel like, ah, I'm just, this is just where I'm going to be my entire life. I'm never going to be able to move this. This might be something to pursue. This might be something to consider trying. , and so, Dr. Doctrinal is a great place to start.

[00:37:34] If you want to give her a call or reach out to her, like Zach said, the contact information and everything for her is in the show notes for this.

[00:37:41] Zach: And if you've done tapping or you've had a similar experience, we'd love to hear about it in the fitness community group on Facebook. , 

[00:37:49] Jeremy: yeah, we'd love to continue the conversation with you there. The link to that is also in the show notes for this episode@thefitness.com. That's also where we will have a brand new episode for you next week. Make sure you subscribe on whatever podcast player you're using.

[00:38:01] Thanks so much for being there. We will see you next week. 

[00:38:03] Zach: See everyone.